Driver leaves in underwear

[tieguy]

My opinion:

If my supervisor fired me, I would assume I was fired (until I got my job back). If he doesn't have the authority to fire me, then why did he? Shouldn't the supervisor get fired for his unethical behavior if he fired someone when he doesn't have that right? Why has no-one brought this up?

Anything the driver did after he was fired should not be an issue at a hearing, he was not a UPS employee. (Although it was dumb, dumb, dumb).



Thanks for the additional info, NI1. Keep us updated!

This is one reason why a union motto has been work now grieve later.

I'm not sure why or how we have given the impression that the sup does not have the authority to fire. The rule wherever I have been has always been that if its not a safety issue then a driver refusing a supervisors instructions given then that driver can be fired on the spot. The supervisor has to have that authority in order to be able to operate. You can't be running a sort or riding with a driver and make service on the packages if you have the employee challenging and refusing every instruction.

The fact the order could be breaking a local parking ordinance could muddy the waters a little but lets be honest here. We plan to go out and double park every day. UPS plans on it and plans to pay X amount of dollars in parking fines every year. So breaking the law sounds ominous but its how we have to operate in order to get the job done.

In this case there was no life , death or injury issue here requiring immediate refusal. the correct response therefore was work now grieve later.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

This is one reason why a union motto has been work now grieve later.

I'm not sure why or how we have given the impression that the sup does not have the authority to fire. The rule wherever I have been has always been that if its not a safety issue then a driver refusing a supervisors instructions given then that driver can be fired on the spot. The supervisor has to have that authority in order to be able to operate. You can't be running a sort or riding with a driver and make service on the packages if you have the employee challenging and refusing every instruction.

The fact the order could be breaking a local parking ordinance could muddy the waters a little but lets be honest here. We plan to go out and double park every day. UPS plans on it and plans to pay X amount of dollars in parking fines every year. So breaking the law sounds ominous but its how we have to operate in order to get the job done.

In this case there was no life , death or injury issue here requiring immediate refusal. the correct response therefore was work now grieve later.

That's right-we are UPS and we will do whatever we want, by gosh. We can double-park, speed, have lights out, run people off the road, and anything else it takes to get these packages delivered. Red light? It's o.k. to run on through that-we are UPS. Rusted out frame on an old P-800? Not a problem. We are UPS. Go ahead and put that out on the road on Avon day. No brakes?? Nah, don't worry cuz we are UPS and we are runnin', not stopping!

 

[Catatonic]

Shouldn't the supervisor get fired for his unethical behavior if he fired someone when he doesn't have that right?

I have seen this brought up several times now and each time, I was like "WHAT?"

Was this something in the last contract? Where did this come from? This certainly was not the case in the 70 -90's when I was in the district.
I could see this applying to Part-time sups maybe but not a full-time sup.

Just curious.

 

[Catatonic]

That's right-we are UPS and we will do whatever we want, by gosh. We can double-park, speed, have lights out, run people off the road, and anything else it takes to get these packages delivered. Red light? It's o.k. to run on through that-we are UPS. Rusted out frame on an old P-800? Not a problem. We are UPS. Go ahead and put that out on the road on Avon day. No brakes?? Nah, don't worry cuz we are UPS and we are runnin', not stopping!

That's the spirit! Good to see somebody showing the old time "go for it".

Or was that Nike?

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

That's the spirit! Good to see somebody showing the old time "go for it".

Or was that Nike?

Seeinzow I is a bit slow, I am not sure if this is a compliment or not, so I will assume it is and say, "Thanks".

 

[tieguy]

That's right-we are UPS and we will do whatever we want, by gosh. We can double-park, speed, have lights out, run people off the road, and anything else it takes to get these packages delivered. Red light? It's o.k. to run on through that-we are UPS. Rusted out frame on an old P-800? Not a problem. We are UPS. Go ahead and put that out on the road on Avon day. No brakes?? Nah, don't worry cuz we are UPS and we are runnin', not stopping!

Never said anything about running red lights or other unsafe acts. IN fact I spoke against unsafe acts. Talking specifically about the double park, parking in no parking zones on sidewalks etc which is the only way we can actually get the packages delivered in many large cities. I'm sure its also SOP in San Francisco. Park where you can and pay the fine.

The guy that perpetuated this event is at the least a drama queen as evidenced by his running off in his underwear.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

Never said anything about running red lights or other unsafe acts. IN fact I spoke against unsafe acts. Talking specifically about the double park, parking in no parking zones on sidewalks etc which is the only way we can actually get the packages delivered in many large cities. I'm sure its also SOP in San Francisco. Park where you can and pay the fine.

The guy that perpetuated this event is at the least a drama queen as evidenced by his running off in his underwear.

Chill out. Sorry I do not follow the posting code around here. I bet you got my drift though. Actually, you did.

 

[iamhuge]

Never said anything about running red lights or other unsafe acts. IN fact I spoke against unsafe acts. Talking specifically about the double park, parking in no parking zones on sidewalks etc which is the only way we can actually get the packages delivered in many large cities. I'm sure its also SOP in San Francisco. Park where you can and pay the fine.

The guy that perpetuated this event is at the least a drama queen as evidenced by his running off in his underwear.

1) Not sure where n1 got his info, but as of this morning, the guy who got fired was not back to work. 2) The company has said that they contacted whoever is in control of parking in San Francisco, police, parking commision,whoever) and double parking for deliveries is not illegal unless there is a sign that says do not double park. 3) The driver took off his whole uniform like i said in original post. Not just his pants. 4) He has 40 years seniority and in his sixties. 5) It happened in residential. 6) Someone from the union came and picked him up. He was not just strolling around the city.

 

[soberups]

The fact the order could be breaking a local parking ordinance could muddy the waters a little but lets be honest here. We plan to go out and double park every day. UPS plans on it and plans to pay X amount of dollars in parking fines every year. So breaking the law sounds ominous but its how we have to operate in order to get the job done.

I'm OK with breaking a parking ordinance to get the job done, but lets be honest here. If I am illegally parked and I get hit by another vehicle, I WILL be charged with an accident. If I am illegally parked and the car behind me tries to pass and gets into a wreck I WILL be charged with an accident. I will get pulled into the office and given a warning or suspension letter and I will get lectured on the Five Seeing Habits and the Ten Point Commentary and be told self-righteously that "you have been trained in proper parking methods and you chose to violate those methods."

Its one thing to break a parking law as long as you know that the company you work for understands and has "got your back." In the case of UPS....they will take every advantage of the opportunity to stick a knife in it.

 

[soberups]

You can't be running a sort or riding with a driver and make service on the packages if you have the employee challenging and refusing every instruction.

We dont know that he was "challenging and refusing every instruction." All that we do know....is that the driver insisted upon following UPS's written methods and refused an instruction to break the law by parking in an illegal and unsafe manner.

And as far as "making service on the packages" goes....if the supervisor was so concerned with making service, why didnt he just document the refusal and fire the driver after they had finished the route and returned to the building?

It sounds to me like both the driver and the sup hit the road that day with the intention of provoking a termination.

 

[dannyboy]

This is not made up! I know the driver. And yes he is back working now

And no its not 30, its 35 years

The next morning, drivers were ready to walk out. and apparently the following day, the drivers are all going to walk out if there is no resolution. So that same day, he was reinstated.

1) Not sure where n1 got his info, but as of this morning, the guy who got fired was not back to work. 2) The company has said that they contacted whoever is in control of parking in San Francisco, police, parking commision,whoever) and double parking for deliveries is not illegal unless there is a sign that says do not double park. 3) The driver took off his whole uniform like i said in original post. Not just his pants. 4) He has 40 years seniority and in his sixties

NI1, sorry, your version of the story, while uplifting to the masses, was a bit hard to believe. And it is funny how the length of service keeps getting longer. And how UPS was fighting the illegal double parking when it really was not illegal. Only the drivers opinion.

On the subject of the other drivers walking, seen that happen once here. And as Sober mentioned, "Now that unionism". But because of that action, 16 drivers dont work at UPS anymore. More than half went to fedex, several are in sales, both car and home, others? who knows. But the day they refused to work to take that stand of unity, that day was their last at UPS.

It sounds great, almost noble. But the company viewed it as an unauthorized work stoppage. And with that stand, all the drivers were terminated. So before the mouth spouts off, maybe the brain needs to get involved in the action.

My question is, lifting a 60 pound package to deliver it on the second floor with no elevator is also legal but unsafe.If I feel unsafe of the situation I WONT DO IT

So what is unsafe about a 60 pound package without an elevator to take it to the second floor? And if you refuse to take it up to the second floor, they can and will terminate you.

Just because you feel unsafe does not give you the ability to judge the action unsafe. Just like this driver who claimed the double parking was illegal, only to find out it was not.

So while I was hoping in a way the driver would get his job back, I figured you for a story teller.

d

 

[pickup]

This is one reason why a union motto has been work now grieve later.

I'm not sure why or how we have given the impression that the sup does not have the authority to fire. The rule wherever I have been has always been that if its not a safety issue then a driver refusing a supervisors instructions given then that driver can be fired on the spot. The supervisor has to have that authority in order to be able to operate. You can't be running a sort or riding with a driver and make service on the packages if you have the employee challenging and refusing every instruction.

The fact the order could be breaking a local parking ordinance could muddy the waters a little but lets be honest here. We plan to go out and double park every day. UPS plans on it and plans to pay X amount of dollars in parking fines every year. So breaking the law sounds ominous but its how we have to operate in order to get the job done.

In this case there was no life , death or injury issue here requiring immediate refusal. the correct response therefore was work now grieve later.

Tieguy, I asked the following of danny a few days ago and now I will ask the same of you :

Danny,let me ask you a question, if he had gone around the corner and taken his pants off, and then the sup saw him while driving by , could this fact be brought up at arbitration and even if it were, does it affect the case? If not, then what difference does it make if he did it two seconds after he was fired. You know more about this than I do, but at that moment, he wasn't just an employee off the clock, he was an ex employee leaving the ups workplace who might have very well been following the rule that when you leave the workplace you don't have the brown pants on. My opinion, he was John Q. Private Citizen at that point and as long as his actions as a private citizen didn't result in any citations, tickets or arrests, they have no bearing on the status of his retained employment with UPS or with this case which is simply about working as directed. Whaddya think?

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Danny answered me by saying that the supervisor didn't have the authority to fire, hence he wasn't fired at that moment and he as a thirty year employee would be expected to know this.

However, you hold the opposite assumption that the supervisor can indeed fire the employee. So for the sake of the same questions now directed at you, your assumption holds.
He was fired presumably while he was in the driver's seat. So he pulls over and parks and that's that , he is fired. Let's say at that point, he exits the vehicle by not using proper methods (i.e . he jumps to the ground), can he be written up for that? No, he was fired. Relationship between company and employee was severed .

So , he is own man on his own time. If he wants to walk around in his underwear, its his time and dime , not those of ups. By the way, I don't think this would violate any decency laws in san fran but that is besides the point.

If he walked away at a slow pace, could he be accused of not working with a sense of urgency? Nope he was fired before this act. If he walked straight into a bar and got drunk within five minutes. Could he be written up for drinking on duty? Nope, he was fired. If he walked into an army surplus store and bought and then wore a ww2 german army uniform with a swastica on it, could he be cited for that by ups? , nope, he was fired

When you're fired, it is what it is. You're fired. What say you?

 

[dannyboy]

Let me give you exactly why I said he does not have the authority to fire the driver on road.

Under the contract, you have the right to union representation when facing disciplinary action. That representation was not available at the time, so while that sup can do so, I dont believe that under the contract that it would or could stick, nor would any sup with smarts do so.

As far as your example of going around the corner and stripping being different, it really isn't. The driver knew that he had the right to union representation. He even went so far as to get "someone from the union" to pick his half naked self up. Why could that same "someone from the union" that was just a little way off, not also represented the driver before he disrobed?

Because the whole reason he did what he did was to cause a scene. Thats why. And that is exactly why he is not at work today, and probably wont be again. He started a pissing contest and while he might have gotten the bigger laugh out of it, he will also pay the price.

Might be wrong, but from the "truth" posted here, dont think so.

d

 

[pickup]

Let me give you exactly why I said he does not have the authority to fire the driver on road.

Under the contract, you have the right to union representation when facing disciplinary action. That representation was not available at the time, so while that sup can do so, I dont believe that under the contract that it would or could stick, nor would any sup with smarts do so.

As far as your example of going around the corner and stripping being different, it really isn't. The driver knew that he had the right to union representation. He even went so far as to get "someone from the union" to pick his half naked self up. Why could that same "someone from the union" that was just a little way off, not also represented the driver before he disrobed?

Because the whole reason he did what he did was to cause a scene. Thats why. And that is exactly why he is not at work today, and probably wont be again. He started a pissing contest and while he might have gotten the bigger laugh out of it, he will also pay the price.

Might be wrong, but from the "truth" posted here, dont think so.

d

Danny , first of all, I posed those questions to tieguy because he firmly believes he was fired. So I wanted to see if he truly believes he is fired by the way he answered those questions. I accepted your earlier answer and I was okay with it.

Now about the representation. I believe the driver has to request the representation or if not wait for later but according to the different versions of this story, that wasn't the case. He didn't request it , he accepted the supervisor's firing him. It's like the right to be silent that is emphasized in the miranda warning when a person gets arrested. He can choose to waive it by babbling, and it will stick in the courtroom

In terms of the disrobing, I think this is adding an emotional cloud to the whole issue here. How about we add a different element in place of that one? Suppose instead of disrobing, he just took off the shirt and hat so that the word ups could no longer be seen(still has a t shirt on and walked right out of the truck and into the local convenience store and bought a beer , went outside and drank the beer in the view of the supervisor. Is he drinking on duty? No. While he might be breaking san fran's drinking in public laws , that is not the business of ups or the sup or anything that needs to be considered by an arbitrator in a future hearing of this case. Just my two cents and it aint worth a lot

As for causing a scene, oh yeah, I agree . but technically got fired and I think in a lot of states, you can collect unemployment even if you got fired for insubordination. California is probably the most employee friendly state when it comes to legislation. the guy is probably collecting unemployment now and is taking a vacation. if it does come to arbitration and he wins, I think he would work one more day and then retire. If he loses then he collects his pension. As for paying the price as you stated I think he waited until the day when the price of this stunt got marked down to zero.

 

[705red]

I have represented several different drivers in the past that were pulled from service from supervisors while on road. I had one driver that refused to even get in a car with a sup and started walking back to the building until he found a taxi. He was put back to work with ALL his back pay!

Once that employee has been pulled from service he is no longer an employee in the companies eyes! If he was they would not cut the medical benefits before the case goes to panel.

I have read every post on this and alot of people have great points and see things different then others.

The driver refused to do what he felt was illegal and unsafe by double parking. What people forget to mention is this was during a "production ride". This means this driver was over allowed and sounds like he was by the book. The only thing the sup could have him due to lower his over hours would be to take short cuts.

Now if the driver is doing everything by the methods, why force him to work unsafe and illegal? Why not retime study the route? Article 18 spells it out!

Preamble The Employer and the Union agree that the safety of the employees and the
general public is of utmost importance.

The problem here is UPS has a huge push on over allowed drivers! IE swears that their numbers are perfect so its the driver screwing UPS! Hogwash!

I had a driver who had 6 rides in a several week span and nothing was told to him except your spending a couple seconds to long looking for the packages. A couple seconds? That doesn't equal out to 3 hours a day of over allowed hours. The sup just recently did a demonstration ride and was a full 2 stops less per hour then this driver.

The point here is we will see more of these situations in the near future because of these over allowed hours. The sups are being pressured to fix these drivers while its not the drivers that need the fixing its the numbers!

From what i have read here, this driver if he has stones will be back to work with at least some back pay, that is if his local has any back bone, and California has some very strong Teamsters!

 

[chopstic]

Cold, you make some very valid points but what is the firt thing your steward and/or BA is going to tell you? Work as directed and then discuss it afterward.

That statement definitly does not apply when unlawful behavior is at stake. Furthermore.... You wouldn't even need a union to get your job back in this situation. If this person took it to court and explained he was directed to engage in unlawful behavior, not only would he get his job back, there would be would probably be punitive damages awarded to him.

 

[tieguy]

Tieguy, I asked the following of danny a few days ago and now I will ask the same of you :

Danny,let me ask you a question, if he had gone around the corner and taken his pants off, and then the sup saw him while driving by , could this fact be brought up at arbitration and even if it were, does it affect the case? If not, then what difference does it make if he did it two seconds after he was fired. You know more about this than I do, but at that moment, he wasn't just an employee off the clock, he was an ex employee leaving the ups workplace who might have very well been following the rule that when you leave the workplace you don't have the brown pants on. My opinion, he was John Q. Private Citizen at that point and as long as his actions as a private citizen didn't result in any citations, tickets or arrests, they have no bearing on the status of his retained employment with UPS or with this case which is simply about working as directed. Whaddya think?

Anything is possible in the arbitration/ panel world. However if the sup says the guy stripped down and left the scene in his skivies then I think it will hurt his case. At the same time he has his 30 years of service to throw on the table.

Danny answered me by saying that the supervisor didn't have the authority to fire, hence he wasn't fired at that moment and he as a thirty year employee would be expected to know this.
However, you hold the opposite assumption that the supervisor can indeed fire the employee. So for the sake of the same questions now directed at you, your assumption holds.

We're both right. We don't want sups running around yelling you're fired everytime someone pisses them off. One clear exception to that general rule has to be the failure to follow direct instructions. I instruct you to do xxxxx . You refuse . I then tell you that I am instructing you to do so and ask you if you understand my instructions. You reply your understanding and refusal. I then explain that you will be discharged if you do not follow my instructions. You still refuse.

Work now grieve later. Theres a reason you're union came up with that motto.

 

[tieguy]

I have represented several different drivers in the past that were pulled from service from supervisors while on road. I had one driver that refused to even get in a car with a sup and started walking back to the building until he found a taxi. He was put back to work with ALL his back pay!

Thats the great thing about the arbitration process. You can sometimes throw enough doubt into these cases to get these wins. Generally from what I've seen most of these refusal type cases end up as time served if they got thier job back. The burden of proof is generally on the company to prove the crime is aggregious enough to require discharge.

Let me ask you this Red . You would not generally advise someone to refuse instructions that are not safety related would you?

And I ask because I think you stewards have a responsibility here. If you keep advising people here that they can pretty much tell a sup what they will and will not do then someones going to read your advice, believe it and pay the price.

 

[tieguy]

I'm OK with breaking a parking ordinance to get the job done, but lets be honest here. If I am illegally parked and I get hit by another vehicle, I WILL be charged with an accident.

If you have an accident while a supervisor is riding with you while you were following that supervisors instructions then that supervisor will be the unwilling participant in a very painful process when he gets back to the center. In my district if you have an accident doing something stupid the supervisor is held accountable because he should have known you were out there doing stupid things. In fact in todays world the pain of you having an accident is much greater for your boss then it is for you. this company is becoming ( if not already in your neck of the woods) fanatical about preventing injuries and accidents.

.

 

[soberups]

If you have an accident while a supervisor is riding with you while you were following that supervisors instructions then that supervisor will be the unwilling participant in a very painful process when he gets back to the center. In my district if you have an accident doing something stupid the supervisor is held accountable because he should have known you were out there doing stupid things. In fact in todays world the pain of you having an accident is much greater for your boss then it is for you. this company is becoming ( if not already in your neck of the woods) fanatical about preventing injuries and accidents.

.

None of this changes the fact that I will be charged with an accident if I park illegally and someone hits me or gets in a wreck trying to get around me.

I could care less what happens to the supervisor. My concern is strictly limited to what will happen to me.

You want me to double park in order to make service on the packages? Fine. Just put it in writing that double parking is an "accepted" practice that will not result in disciplinary action taken against me, and we will call it good. Until then, I'm going to cover my ass. My career is more important than your numbers.