Ft. Hood

knightablaze

Active Member
TOS so let's use your logic in comparing Bush's response vs. barry's lack of response.

So you think that Bush should have upset all those school kids who have been waiting weeks for him to read to them just to make a public statement about an attack .

Vs.

barry who had all the facts before he went in front of the cameras , but chose to make jokes and give a "shout out " to someone who was not A Congressional Medal of Honor. And after 2-3 minutes get to his point.

ps Bush went to Fort Hood, but keep his visit quiet.
Unlike barry who never misses a photo op.

False. Obama delivered the eulogy for the Fort Hood victims while VP Biden attended the services for the Fort Lewis soldiers who died in Afghanistan about two weeks ago.

Plus, there is no way an isolated shooting from one man is as immediate a threat to the USA as leveling a city block in New York. Obama's critics are grasping at straws. You really need to be more rational.

Obama didn't make multiple jokes, he settled the Tribal Nations Conference and gave a shout out to a medal of honor winning veteran of war. After making his closing remarks he issued his statement on the Fort Hood shootings.

He kept his words short and to the condolences because he doesn't want to come across like an idiotic internet troll jumping to conclusions.
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
TOS so let's use your logic in comparing Bush's response vs. barry's lack of response.

So you think that Bush should have upset all those school kids who have been waiting weeks for him to read to them just to make a public statement about an attack .

Vs.

barry who had all the facts before he went in front of the cameras , but chose to make jokes and give a "shout out " to someone who was not A Congressional Medal of Honor. And after 2-3 minutes get to his point.

ps Bush went to Fort Hood, but keep his visit quiet.
Unlike barry who never misses a photo op.


BABAGANOUSH,

What I expect from a president, the leader of the free world, the man in charge, the person responsible during the WORST terror attack on our soil, IS TO JUMP UP, EXCUSE HIMSELF, APOLOGIZE TO THE KIDS, WALK OUT and LEAD THIS COUNTRY.

NOT sit there like a baffled idiot appearing to be sitting in a room of people with the same intelligence level.

No one is saying he should have gotten up and spoke in the classroom, only another idiot would suggest that, instead of sitting there like a maroon who was clueless, why didnt he get up, go to a secure location and re-assure the nation that he was in charge.

Instead, for hours he hid like a coward before addressing the nation.

This was his second blunder as president when it came to addressing a national tragedy.

Katrina was his first blunder as he flew "over" New Orleans after leaving McCains birthday bash in Arizona.

You have a steep hill to climb trying to compare OBAMA to BUSH's stupidity.

Obama addresses the country in a timely manner, he spoke at that conference and read a prepared statement with a transition included at the 3 minute mark.

How is that worst than BUSH sitting in a classroom filled with children too young to understand what the president does while the country was under an attack from terrorists?

The importance of 911 should have elevated BUSH's response to an immediate reaction. There was no time for delays, the countries citizens were in danger as a whole, in the Ft Hood incident, it was a random shooting, isolated in nature and presented no threats to other cities, counties, states or to the remaining citizens of the United States.

Face it, he (BUSH) didnt know what he was doing or what to say. He needed to wait until he was told to move and what to say.

The country suffered greatly that day as the BUSH administration failed to protect america and the american public.

Obama hasnt failed this country with respect to Ft. Hood.

There is plenty of blame to go around, begining with the TEXAS "liberal" gun laws.

This major was able to walk into a gun store the day before, buy 2 guns and a ton of ammo using a muslim name, get on base with un-authorized weapons, make it into a military building without detection of the weapons and ammo and began a random shooting spree.

Because of the "lax" frontier gun laws in Texas, this major was NOT subjected to a background check or waiting period. He was able to buy a ton of ammo and the gun store clerk never bothered to notify anyone that a man with a muslim name just bought 2 guns and a ton of ammo?

What happened to "never forget"? Seems like this gun store FORGOT.

What about the multitude of military failures?

Everything from failing to monitor this majors actions to allowing him to enter a military base with illegal weapons. Why arent the guards on the base not being charged with failing to do the inspections that are required?

The state of TEXAS shares a part of the blame for allowing the easy access to guns without basic scrutiny. This is what happens when you make it easy to get guns.

People who have mental problems will always find a place (like texas) to get guns and kill innocent people. You dont have to be MUSLIM to do this in AMERICA.

:peaceful:
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
Hey other side,
I truly do not wish any harm to you and your family ---but I hope you never have to face the situation that I did with my wife in a very deserted downtown garage after dinner and theatre. We left at intermission --no one was around except a group of four thugs ---as they demanded our money and eyed my wife ---SMITH AND WESSOM --was with me --they ran. I hope you would never have to witness anyone you love --be raped or murdered in front of your eyes --with you being unable to stop it.

Liberals always scream about their right to kill innocent babies --ABORTION --their right to choose ---
Well my right to choose is I carry --lawfully-trained and very capable.
You can choose not to carry !! Do not take away my right !!!!


Island,

Your story of drawing a weapon on UN-ARMED thugs does not impress me.

If you had shot one of these young men, and one of them died, you would have been charged with manslaughter.

You are required to use "equal force" and drawing a weapon on youths who presented no weapons would get you 5 years if you actually pulled the trigger.

That type of bravado may work in farmtown USA, but try that in Los Angeles and you would be shot dead and so would your wife as the "youth"
here all carry weapons.

The "dirty harry" routine only works in the movies and in the imaginations of gun owners.

Remember this, even if you were scared enough to pull the trigger and you killed one of them, and they ran and took NO MONEY, what crime did they commit vs. what crime did you commit and which one carries the bigger penalty?

If you dont know, try it and tell me from prison.

:peaceful:
 

tieguy

Banned
9FIVE,

where do you believe GUN CONTROL began?

If you knew anything about american history, you would know that GUN CONTROL began at the end of the wild west era.

:peaceful:

you may have to dig a little deeper when chasing this theory. If your correct then the rest of the country had no gun control and no wild west issues.

In fact if you're correct then the entire world somehow evolved without the need for gun control until the end of the wild west era?

How can that be? Are you creating this theory as you go with the assumption you can somehow fill in the cracks as you go.
 

Lue C Fur

Evil member
Well, either way.
Either the American people are one the most gun violent people on the planet.
Or, it just because of the amount of guns they have (A record on earth - 90 guns per 100 households).

Here are some facts about Japan :

Gun control in Japan is the most stringent in the democratic world. The weapons law begins by stating 'No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords', and very few exceptions are allowed. Gun ownership is minuscule, and so is gun crime.
In Japan Gun crime does exist, but in very low numbers. There were only 30 crimes committed in 1989 with shotguns or air rifles.

Tokyo is the safest major city in the world. Only 59,000 licensed gun owners live in Tokyo. Per one million inhabitants, Tokyo has 40 reported muggings a year; New York has 11,000. The handgun murder rate is at least 200 times higher in America than Japan.
Robbery is almost as rare as murder. Indeed, armed robbery and murder are both so rare that they usually make the national news, regardless of where they occur. Japan's robbery rate is 1.4 per 100,000 inhabitants. The reported American rate is 220.9.
People walk anywhere in Japan at night, and carry large sums of cash.

Source: http://www.guncite.com/journals/dkjgc.html

Good article...although its outdated. I lived in Tokyo for 7 years and my wife is Japanese. One reason Japan has a low crime rate is because they dont have many illegal immigrants and have very strict rules against illegals. Also when you caught doing a crime you are punished for it...unlike here where we have the bleeding heart liberals that let them go so they can do it again. I bet the liberals would have a field day with this info which i got from your link:

After the arrest, a suspect may be detained without bail for up to 28 days before the prosecutor brings the suspect before a judge.[42] Even after the 28 day period is completed, detention in a Japanese police station may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Rearrest on another charge, bekken taihö, is a common police tactic for starting the suspect on another 28 day interrogation process. 'Rearrest' may (p.30)occur while the suspect is still being held at the police station on the first charge. Some defendants may be held for several months without ever being brought before a judge.[43] Courts approve 99.5 per cent of prosecutors' requests for detentions.[44]
Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a suspect in custody, and those meetings are strictly limited. In the months while a suspect is held prisoner, the defense counsel may see his or her client for one to five meetings lasting about 15 minutes each. Even that access will be denied if it hampers the police investigation. While under detention, suspects can be interrogated 12 hours a day, allowed to bathe only every fifth day, and may be prohibited from standing up, lying down, or leaning against the wall of their jail cells.[45] Amnesty International calls the Japanese police custody system a 'flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles'.[46]
The confession rate is 95 per cent.[47] As a Tokyo police sergeant observes, 'It is no use to protest against power'.[48] Suspects are not allowed to read confessions before they sign them, and suspects commonly complain that their confession was altered after signature. The police use confession as their main investigative technique, and when that fails, they can become frustrated and angry. The Tokyo Bar Association states that the police routinely 'engage in torture or illegal treatment'. The Tokyo Bar is particularly critical of the judiciary for its near-total disinterest in coercion during the confession process. 'Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions'.[49]

I will keep my guns and fight for my right bear arms so i can defend my family against human garbage. :wink2:
 

klein

Für Meno :)
Good article...although its outdated. I lived in Tokyo for 7 years and my wife is Japanese. One reason Japan has a low crime rate is because they dont have many illegal immigrants and have very strict rules against illegals. Also when you caught doing a crime you are punished for it...unlike here where we have the bleeding heart liberals that let them go so they can do it again.

Holy, and I almost went to see Japan this summer.
They had a terrific seatsale (return price of $400).

But, when I looked closer into it (like not being able to take your luggage on the airport train to the city - they have luggage carriers/drivers).
And you get it 2 days later, same with return flight. Got to send in your luggage 2 days earlier.
It, just reminded me, how over packed those trians are, and the entire city.
And trust me, I'm not a big fan of huge crowds.
Just not for me.

I admire you done it though, and for a whole 7 years !
 

toonertoo

Most Awesome Dog
Staff member
TOS so let's use your logic in comparing Bush's response vs. barry's lack of response.

So you think that Bush should have upset all those school kids who have been waiting weeks for him to read to them just to make a public statement about an attack .

Vs.

barry who had all the facts before he went in front of the cameras , but chose to make jokes and give a "shout out " to someone who was not A Congressional Medal of Honor. And after 2-3 minutes get to his point.

ps Bush went to Fort Hood, but keep his visit quiet.
Unlike barry who never misses a photo op.

And PS it took Bush 7 whole minutes to respond and Obama has waited until his health care bill sorta passed to decide on troops for Afghanistan for 4 Months!

I agree completely. The situation that Bush was in was real time & on camera. He did not have the luxury of collecting his thoughts, getting advice, etc.
Barry is a joke.

He is a joke that if it werent true would be funny
.
Looks like those titles leave you

dumbest!

congrats:peaceful:

We have a winner!


Blah, blah, blah. Christ, we know Klein, America sucks. You tell us every day.

Does he ever stop, is he an alien?
 

tieguy

Banned
Blah, blah, blah. Christ, we know Klein, America sucks. You tell us every day.

don't sweat canada will always suck worse as long as Klein lives there.

Klein is the message sinking in at all? You've gotten the same message from many americans and one of your own countrymen? Have you heard it yet?
 

klein

Für Meno :)
don't sweat canada will always suck worse as long as Klein lives there.

Klein is the message sinking in at all? You've gotten the same message from many americans and one of your own countrymen? Have you heard it yet?

Yes, I have.
But, only trying to help you out.
If I lived in California, I would still think the same way.
Or in Germany for that matter.

It's hard for me and others here, to open up your stubborn strong republican minds at times.
How can you borrow more and more money, yet want tax cuts for example ?
How many of your own countrymen have spoken against you, tie ?

I really want the best for you and the USA.
Dollar devalution, USA credit rating going downwards.
Something has to be done to fix it.
Fiscal responsibilty.

Yes, almost every other country had stimulus programs and extra government spending.
But, they (the citizens), are prepared to pay it back (more taxes).
Something, you disagree upon.

For me, it's the fastest way to get out of debt, and they can lower taxes in the future, once again.
And saves the countries credit rating.

I'm not about Canada versus USA.
I truely want whats best for America, because your economic status , has a huge impact on ours.

And, maybe looking north or to Europe, to see how they cope with certain things, can't hurt you.
It's like UPS looking at Fedex.
 

knightablaze

Active Member
The only problem was that was not a congressional medal honor holder, but a presidental medal of freedom holder.

That's not a problem, that's a simple mistake. He was a veteran bestowed the highest civilian honor. Also, a bronze star and a french medal of honor.

In any case, that still leaves you with no ground to stand your pathetic arguments on.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Yes, I have.
But, only trying to help you out.
If I lived in California, I would still think the same way.
Or in Germany for that matter.

It's hard for me and others here, to open up your stubborn strong republican minds at times.
How can you borrow more and more money, yet want tax cuts for example ?
How many of your own countrymen have spoken against you, tie ?

I really want the best for you and the USA.
Dollar devalution, USA credit rating going downwards.
Something has to be done to fix it.
Fiscal responsibilty.

Yes, almost every other country had stimulus programs and extra government spending.
But, they (the citizens), are prepared to pay it back (more taxes).
Something, you disagree upon.

For me, it's the fastest way to get out of debt, and they can lower taxes in the future, once again.
And saves the countries credit rating.

I'm not about Canada versus USA.
I truely want whats best for America, because your economic status , has a huge impact on ours.

And, maybe looking north or to Europe, to see how they cope with certain things, can't hurt you.
It's like UPS looking at Fedex.

I'm just curious, but do they have community colleges in Canada? Basically a school where a lot of highschool dropouts go to get some post secondary education? If so, you need to go there and take their most basic economics course. Really, you should. Its almost scary how poorly you understand government, taxes, and their effects on the economy. This is the only post I will make on this subject since this isn't the thread's original topic, but our governments debt issues have nothing to do with republicans cutting taxes. It has a lot more to do with our government's current obligations to our citizens due to programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. We owe several times what our entire economy is worth to those who will be getting paid these benefits in the coming decades. They are what will bankrupt this nation. Obama is simply accelerating this process.
 

klein

Für Meno :)
I'm just curious, but do they have community colleges in Canada? Basically a school where a lot of highschool dropouts go to get some post secondary education? If so, you need to go there and take their most basic economics course. Really, you should. Its almost scary how poorly you understand government, taxes, and their effects on the economy. This is the only post I will make on this subject since this isn't the thread's original topic, but our governments debt issues have nothing to do with republicans cutting taxes. It has a lot more to do with our government's current obligations to our citizens due to programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. We owe several times what our entire economy is worth to those who will be getting paid these benefits in the coming decades. They are what will bankrupt this nation. Obama is simply accelerating this process.

Maybe, you should have sent Bush to one of those classes.
He implemented free medicaid (drugs), for seniors, which will cost Trillions over time, yet lowered overall taxes.
And we all know the outcome of that.

Now, you must think on how to fix that shortfall of monies, and how to get extra funds to pay for his decisions.
It wasn't even affordable when the economy was steam-rolling full ahead.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Island,

Your story of drawing a weapon on UN-ARMED thugs does not impress me.

If you had shot one of these young men, and one of them died, you would have been charged with manslaughter.

You are required to use "equal force" and drawing a weapon on youths who presented no weapons would get you 5 years if you actually pulled the trigger.

That type of bravado may work in farmtown USA, but try that in Los Angeles and you would be shot dead and so would your wife as the "youth"
here all carry weapons.

The "dirty harry" routine only works in the movies and in the imaginations of gun owners.

Remember this, even if you were scared enough to pull the trigger and you killed one of them, and they ran and took NO MONEY, what crime did they commit vs. what crime did you commit and which one carries the bigger penalty?

If you dont know, try it and tell me from prison.

:peaceful:


Happy to see that you are not impressed ---happily live in your LA-LA land ---by the way ---I guess you have magical powers --UNARMED ??????
I would look forward to be judged by twelve of my peers rather than carried by six ----that is of course that you would not be on the jury.
Also I doubt if they would be put me in jail ---the Pelosi Bill that was pased in the house has jail time for all American's that will not buy Health care ---they will be too full:happy-very:
 
D

Dis-organized Labor

Guest
Island,

Your story of drawing a weapon on UN-ARMED thugs does not impress me.

If you had shot one of these young men, and one of them died, you would have been charged with manslaughter.

You are required to use "equal force" and drawing a weapon on youths who presented no weapons would get you 5 years if you actually pulled the trigger.

That type of bravado may work in farmtown USA, but try that in Los Angeles and you would be shot dead and so would your wife as the "youth"
here all carry weapons.

The "dirty harry" routine only works in the movies and in the imaginations of gun owners.

Remember this, even if you were scared enough to pull the trigger and you killed one of them, and they ran and took NO MONEY, what crime did they commit vs. what crime did you commit and which one carries the bigger penalty?

If you dont know, try it and tell me from prison.

:peaceful:

Here is a classic "jumping to conclusions". He never said that he was about to pull the trigger. Maybe he has a Carry permit? You certainly don't know.
Does it make more sense to ignore your intuition and forever regret it?
Only a brain dead idiot would not be alarmed in a similar situation.
Sometimes, I'm really amazed at what some people want to argue over and their choice of words. By the way, if you consider showing four thugs, that are most likely contemplating some crime against you and your spouse, that you are armed is a "Diry Harry" routine, you probably need some remedial movie watching. You obviously missed some crucial parts.:minus:
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
Happy to see that you are not impressed ---happily live in your LA-LA land ---by the way ---I guess you have magical powers --UNARMED ??????
I would look forward to be judged by twelve of my peers rather than carried by six ----that is of course that you would not be on the jury.
Also I doubt if they would be put me in jail ---the Pelosi Bill that was pased in the house has jail time for all American's that will not buy Health care ---they will be too full:happy-very:


Island,

stories like yours are nonsense as "REAL" thugs dont "ASK" for money, they take it. They also dont give thier victims time to draw weapons.

A real group of thugs would have taken you to the ground knowing they "outnumbered" you and you would only be able to get a round off before they took the gun away from you and shot both you and your wife.

Your story sounds as unbelievable as it does rediculous.

There are many cases where potential victims shot a suspected thief before any crime was committed and "they" ended up in jail.

Remember, just because you were "afraid" and drew a weapon, doesnt mean you had the "right" to discharge that weapon.

Equal force my friend, something to think about next time you try to impersonate "dirty harry".

Take the case of Joe Horn, he shot two men in the BACK and killed them both as "he" suspected them of robbing the neighbors home. His case went to the grand jury in Texas, and he got lucky, they didnt indict him. However, he was charged and had to face the prospect of being labeled a murderer.

"I have no love for thieves, politicians, Presidents, or anyone who flagrantly disrespects the law. I don’t have a problem with thieves getting their comeuppance. When Joe Horn of Pasadena, Texas took his shotgun outside his house to shoot the two burglars breaking into his neighbor’s house, two burglars breaking the law, I have no problem. Unfortunately, Mr. Horn made the choice to break the law as well. He shot two unarmed men in the back trying to run from him. However, Joe Horn was acquitted for his crime when a Texas grand jury refused to indict him.
The two men Mr. Horn killed were two illegal aliens from Columbia. Some people feel that the fact that they were undocumented makes it okay that Mr. Horn shot and killed them. However, this was unknown to Mr. Horn when he pulled the trigger on his twelve gauge shotgun. The audio tape that was made when Mr. Horn called emergency operators recorded the altercation when Mr. Horn confronted the burglars. Not once did I hear Mr. Horn ask the men if they had any documentation. I cannot help but wonder if the fact that the two men he shot in the back are referred to as illegal aliens instead of undocumented foreigners has any bearing on the issue. The fact that the men were illegally here was simply a matter of circumstance. Besides, is it some people’s contention that foreigners are not entitled to protection by the law?
I have no problem with thieves getting their comeuppance. I don’t have a problem with murderers getting their just desserts as well. If Mr. Horn made the decision to kill two men by shooting them in the back then Mr. Horn made the decision to suffer the consequences of being a murderer.
Without question Texas is the single state within the union that enjoys a reputation for the highest rate of state sponsored murder. Texas has put people to death on the testimony of a single witness who is legally blind and “saw” the defendant and the victim struggle from a block away with an office building blocking the view. Texas will put people in jail for library book and jay walking violations. While Texas does have a reputation for being hard on some, Texas is very lenient on others. Texas is one of the most ****ed up states when it comes to the disparity of murder charges and punishment.
In Texas, a woman with a daughter trying out for a cheerleader competition will hire a hit man to kill the mother of her daughter’s rival. The hit man she tried to hire was an undercover cop. The woman is on visual and audio tape saying that she wanted that woman dead and is ready to pay for it. The woman’s daughter’s rival will be so upset that she would drop out of the competition and the woman’s little girl would undoubtedly win. However, when the woman is busted, with intent and a videotaped confession, the most the woman suffered was a fine and six months of a ten year sentence.
In Texas, a woman with a cheating husband hires a private investigator to track him. When the detective finds the philanderer in the middle of philandering, the woman is called and shows up on the scene. While her husband is walking to his car in the parking lot of the hotel of the illicit rendezvous, the woman uses her high dollar Mercedes Benz to run her husband down. While the man is on the ground, she puts the car in reverse and parks it on top of him. The couple’s daughter is in the passenger seat watching her mother killing her father. But due to its application to specific circumstances associated with only the most reprehensible crimes, the death penalty is not even an option as punishment.
This is the same Texas that threw the book at a fourteen year old black girl who received a maximum sentence of seven years in a juvenile facility for shoving a hall monitor at her Paris, Texas high school. I guess the girl should have made sure she only shoved illegal alien hall monitors.
Texas is tough on crime, but only when there are special circumstances that allows the heaviest punishments to be handed out like the non white condition of the defendant. It isn’t any surprise at all that Mr. Horn didn’t even get charged. If anything is a surprise it is the fact that it took six months or so for a grand jury to determine that it wasn’t going to indict a white property owner who admitted on tape that he was going outside to kill two men who were never a threat to him or his property. He cocked his twelve gauge rifle and challenged the direct order from the emergency operator telling Mr. Horn not to engage or kill the men. He ran outside, hollered freeze, and shot two men in the coldest of blood. He is one of the most despicable of law breakers. He is a murderer. One day he will get his comeuppance."

THIS COULD BE YOU ISLAND.
:peaceful:
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Here is a classic "jumping to conclusions". He never said that he was about to pull the trigger. Maybe he has a Carry permit? You certainly don't know.
Does it make more sense to ignore your intuition and forever regret it?
Only a brain dead idiot would not be alarmed in a similar situation.
Sometimes, I'm really amazed at what some people want to argue over and their choice of words. By the way, if you consider showing four thugs, that are most likely contemplating some crime against you and your spouse, that you are armed is a "Diry Harry" routine, you probably need some remedial movie watching. You obviously missed some crucial parts.:minus:

Dis-organized Labor,
Thank you. I live in a state that allows us to use our constitutional right to buy and own firearms. I legally applied for my carry permit, was fingerprinted ,paid a license fee(another TAX) and was given my permit.
I went many steps further. Although I was very familiar with guns my wife and I joined a shooting range club. We took lessons from the rangemaster on the proper use, cleaning and storing of weapons. We regularly attend the club for further training and target practice.
We completely understand that firearms are not toys and have full respect for them but as I stated previuosly, as we found out, the police cannot be everywhere.
I am a proud gun owner and will always fight for my right to keep them.:wink2:
P.S. Other side
Many, many years ago I ran with an Irish street gang in the South Bronx in New York City --while we did not mug people --we certainly were not angels. I lived through the social changes of "Fort Apache" going form Irish to Puerto Rican to Black. I was glad I grew up there --learned many "LIFE" lessons that still serve me today. While I am no longer in New York --I do not live in the farmland that you refer to . The State in which I reside today --not far from L.A. CALIF ---does not have the crime problem nor the gangs of NY or LA --all state residents have the right to carry and most do =LOW CRIME !!!!!
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Maybe, you should have sent Bush to one of those classes.
He implemented free medicaid (drugs), for seniors, which will cost Trillions over time, yet lowered overall taxes.
And we all know the outcome of that.

Now, you must think on how to fix that shortfall of monies, and how to get extra funds to pay for his decisions.
It wasn't even affordable when the economy was steam-rolling full ahead.


The problem with this is mainly that Bush would have eliminated to burden of social security if not blocked by the dimocrats. While his plan was not perfect by any stretch it was much better than what we ended up with.

They did to my opposition expand medicare for seniors and since you support government health care you should be cheering wildly for this. Just so you know it has been one of the very few government programs in this country to come in under costs which is one reason so many dimocrats in this country oppose it.
 
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