How are other centers doing with the DOK questions?

[John19841]

So you studied information for a test that you knew was coming? First of all, congratulations. I would imagine you haven't taken too many oral tests in your lifetime.

I really can't tell what you're trying to get at here. Yes, I studied for the test I knew was coming. I believe that's usually the way it works I do not know why that would make you relate experience with oral reviews because I stated I studied. If you're trying to insult me, I do believe you're doing a poor job of it.


Do you think you would do as well if you had to take the test just before you had to go out and deliver a 20% over dispatched route (you know those PAL labels are not in sequence). More important, do you think you would have done as well if you had to study this information before or after you did said route?

Now I see where you're going with this. You're making the point that reciting this stuff while dealing with the stress of actually doing the job is more difficult. However, keep this in mind. When you are asked to recite it, what's the consequence of not knowing it? What do you have to be nervous about? I had to know it, and recite it perfectly, or I didn't get hired.

Now on the opposite side, do you think you would have done better or do you think you would have had a better conceptual idea of what the seeing habits are and how to apply them if you had classroom discussion and demonstrations or visuals? Do you think this would make you a better employee? At the very least, do you think this will help you when you are randomly selected to recite these things the next time?

I did have a classroom demonstration and discussion back in Driver Orientation. They drilled everything into my head then, made us know the 5 seeing habits and 10 point commentary. Will it make me a better employee? Probably not; will it help when asked randomly to recite them? Definatley...I know it cold.

Once again, I can't really tell where you were trying to go with this post. I'm not making a point that everyone should learn this stuff, just saying that they are forcing new drivers to learn it as part of the hiring process.

 

[Brownnblue]

Ryan, I am not trying to insult you all, far from it. Quite frankly, I am impressed that you did a good job on your oral exam. My point on the oral exam is that it is considered generally more difficult to take than a written test for a number of reasons, probably the main one being the simple fact that most people have taken very few of them in their lifetime.

I obviously did a pretty lousy job of trying to make my point, let me try to redirect. You stated that you did have classroom discussion and demonstration in your driver orientation, and that this helped you know the elements that you had to memorize. Current drivers do not have this luxury. Our only way of being exposed to the material is through a quick briefing during a PCM (when there are many distractions) and text message sometime during the day.

It is pretty safe to assume that at least a percentage of current drivers are having difficulties being able to recall the elements of the keys & habits; if it wasn't this thread probably would not have been started. My point was that if UPS would take the time to sit the current drivers down and go over these things that we need to memorize, that not only would audit scores drastically improve, but the drivers would conceptually have a better idea of what the seeing elements are trying to enforce; thus making for better drivers and safer work habits.

Instead, we get "learning through intimidation" as Mr. 98917 Anonymous so clearly stated earlier in this thread. Suppose a driver has a learning disability; where would he go for help? Suppose a driver simply learns more efficiently when exposed to more teaching angles? There are consequences in not being able to recall this stuff, 98917 went so far as to say discharge. Other posters said warning letters.

Let me try to sum it up: if current drivers had classroom time such as you had I don't think they would be having too much of a problem with recalling the needed elements as they seem to be having. But they really don't have anything remotely close, thus all the problems.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Brownnblue]

And apologies for a double post. Just not my day, I guess.

 

[Griff]

Ryan, I am not trying to insult you all, far from it. Quite frankly, I am impressed that you did a good job on your oral exam. My point on the oral exam is that it is considered generally more difficult to take than a written test for a number of reasons, probably the main one being the simple fact that most people have taken very few of them in their lifetime.

I obviously did a pretty lousy job of trying to make my point, let me try to redirect. You stated that you did have classroom discussion and demonstration in your driver orientation, and that this helped you know the elements that you had to memorize. Current drivers do not have this luxury. Our only way of being exposed to the material is through a quick briefing during a PCM (when there are many distractions) and text message sometime during the day.

It is pretty safe to assume that at least a percentage of current drivers are having difficulties being able to recall the elements of the keys & habits; if it wasn't this thread probably would not have been started. My point was that if UPS would take the time to sit the current drivers down and go over these things that we need to memorize, that not only would audit scores drastically improve, but the drivers would conceptually have a better idea of what the seeing elements are trying to enforce; thus making for better drivers and safer work habits.

Instead, we get "learning through intimidation" as Mr. 98917 Anonymous so clearly stated earlier in this thread. Suppose a driver has a learning disability; where would he go for help? Suppose a driver simply learns more efficiently when exposed to more teaching angles? There are consequences in not being able to recall this stuff, 98917 went so far as to say discharge. Other posters said warning letters.

Let me try to sum it up: if current drivers had classroom time such as you had I don't think they would be having too much of a problem with recalling the needed elements as they seem to be having. But they really don't have anything remotely close, thus all the problems.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I agree with everything that you say but unfortunately the company doesn't care about safety. They care about having a trump card to discipline people and passing their audits, that's the bottom line. It's all about appearance when it comes to safety and UPS, "just make it look good on the outside" seems to be their mantra. They do not care if you literally have no idea what you are talking about, just as long as you repeat what they tell you to verbatim and on command. The system is flawed from the ground up and they will never get what they are reaching for.

But you already knew all that.

 

[happyboy]

Well said Griff,

It seems the company doesn't care about safety or the customers for that matter. They care about the numbers. It's a shame.

 

[JustTired]

First off! I would like the person who is going to make me recite this word for word, to start off by reciting it to me "word for word" first.

Second...... If the discipline for not being perfect is a day off without pay, then I would like them to do the whole center at one time (same day). That should put an end to the "day off" problem.

As I've stated in another post.....I think it's great to know this stuff and believe that most do know it. But to have to recite it word for word is total crap.

What's next? The Gettysburg Address? The Declaration of Independence? Again...most people get the gist of these things , but few can recite them word for word. Maybe we should start kicking anyone who does not know these things "word for word" out of the country. I'll bet you even ol' "W" can't even do it. Any takers?

I can't figure out how I've managed to deliver all those pkgs the last 25 years with 25 yrs safe driving not knowing this crap word for word. I guess it's just a fluke!

 

[brownmonster]

Someone has a job to justify

 

[westsideworma]

First off! I would like the person who is going to make me recite this word for word, to start off by reciting it to me "word for word" first.

Second...... If the discipline for not being perfect is a day off without pay, then I would like them to do the whole center at one time (same day). That should put an end to the "day off" problem.

As I've stated in another post.....I think it's great to know this stuff and believe that most do know it. But to have to recite it word for word is total crap.

What's next? The Gettysburg Address? The Declaration of Independence? Again...most people get the gist of these things , but few can recite them word for word. Maybe we should start kicking anyone who does not know these things "word for word" out of the country. I'll bet you even ol' "W" can't even do it. Any takers?

I can't figure out how I've managed to deliver all those pkgs the last 25 years with 25 yrs safe driving not knowing this crap word for word. I guess it's just a fluke!

Agreed, even in management we have people who don't know them asking us as well. I got them all word for word today (it was a good day) and the bonehead asking me told me I forgot one. I know I didn't but didn't have it in me to argue (just wanted to go home). Its like they don't want anyone to have any sort of satisfaction here. I mean I wouldn't get any satisfaction from knowing these but you know what I'm saying, some people might lol.

I never had to know it word for word before, they always used me whenever there was an audit and I'v never spent any time out of work memorizing them, just through repetition at PCMs and years in, you remember them.

THe management commitment however....that I'm STILL trying to learn verbatim lol. Do I know what I'm supposed to do? Sure! Can I speak it word for word? Not yet.

Tried to give you some rep JT but it says I need to spread it around first...stop saying stuff that makes sense! haha

 

[FromBluetoBrown]

In my center they have been making the drivers that failed their test come in 15 minutes early for some sort of training.

 

[hooksntees]

"DOK was intended to help create a safer work enviornment for UPS employees." ( or MAKE UPS MORE MONEY BY DECREASING THE AMOUNT OF INJURIES AND ACCIDENTS) Now its Safety First, OR ELSE!!!

The structure of their DOK plan is:
1st testing- Pass or Unsat.
if unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat = Warning
If unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat= suspension
if unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat= discharge

Reasons for this programs failure-
1) The test is to be given verbally by a sup. The results recorded on a bubble sheet. This makes the test inconsistant and unfair to the employee. What if the sup has issues with that driver?
2) Some drivers may have learning disabilities and/ or simply not test well. The testing must be in a controlled situation and prepared to each and every drivers individual learning levels.
3) Most importantly..... its not in the contract!!!!

 

[browniehound]

I just learned today that we will be interviewed by the center team and we will be required to know this stuff. After a few tries we will be subjected to progressive disaplinary action. The center manager says that the union is behind them and they consider it training. Training is part of our job and we are subject to disaplinary action if we don't comply.

I happen to agree with this under certain conditions. If they expect us to recite this word for word, then they must give each driver the exact amount of training before his shift that everyone else recieves. Only then can it be considered training subjected to warning letters.

I say this because our center team is required to know this word for word. Their livelyhood depends on them memorizing this information. I'm sure they brew a pot of coffee and spend their friday nights learning the stuff. The difference is, our safety as drivers and workers depends on us KNOWING this information.

There is a big difference in the two. I aim high in steering whenever I'm on the road. I just do it from experience (and from my UPS training). My guess is the center manager doesn't "Aim high in steering" when he is driving.

He will, however, be able to say : Imaginary target baseball/dartboard. Centers the car in travel path, smooth stops and turns. he will also be able to quiote "Find a safe path well ahead".

What I suspect however, is that many can't grasp the concept. They can recite it word for word, but they don't understand it.

I say this based on the first statement; "imaginary target, baseball/dartboard" Nobody in their right mind drives down the road imagining a baseball or a dartboard. If you do, then I think you have some mental issues.

When I drive down the road, I aim high in steering. If I'm under 30 MPH my eyes are focused 6-8 seconds ahead of my car. If I'm over 30, its 8-12.

At no time am I EVER imagining as baseball or a dartboard????? What the hell good does that do???

 

[Big Babooba]

Our building has a letter posted on the Teamster's bulletin board that says a meeting was held with the division manager about this subject. It also states that we cannot be disciplined for not being able to answer the DOK questions.

 

[Upslady20]

I got pulled into the office this morning to recite all of the saftey stuff to my center manager.. I had a saftey ride a week ago where I was told that I needed to learn the 10 point commentary by the next week it was the only thing I did not know word for word.. So today I knew that but messed up on the some of the exact wording on the 5 seeing habits, which I really should have done better. My center manager was happy with my knowledge and told me to just work a little more on it. He told me he was looking for several drivers that he could rely on to know the information so when there is an audit he will point them our direction. I think I will be hiding if anyone is a guest in our building.
I keep a copy of the material we were given with all of the safety rules on my dash and if I am stuck somewhere I will glance down at it and try to commit it to memory. The 10 point I taped to the bulk head door and would glance at it when opening the door it apparrently worked since I was able to recite it..
My center manager also said other centers will giving out warning letters but he was not planning on doing that if he can get enough drivers on board to learn the material without things getting ugly.

 

[Cementups]

First off! I would like the person who is going to make me recite this word for word, to start off by reciting it to me "word for word" first.

Watch what you wish for. My center manager used to be the Safety Manger for the district. He was also once a driver. I can 110% quarantee that he knows them frontwards and backwards.


Our "team" has given us tips on how to remember the 10 pt. commentary. Like 6 and 7 both start with S. Stale Green Lights ans Scan steering wheels. thye have them for all 10 but at 11pm and sick and very tired i am drawing blanks on the rest of them.

 

[AlaskaMike]

Really? You're a "senior driver" and haven't been taught "ten point commentary" or "5 seeing habits" a dozen or more times?

Sounds to me like you've been paid for training but instead of learning the material you've been screwing off. Stealing time. That doesn't require an 8 hour guarantee or any sort of guarantee or any progressive discipline either.

I'd take you out of service and put you on the street. That'd be a BIG motivator for the rest of your building.

Anytime you walk a "senior driver" out through the gates and they don't see his face anymore they tend to toe the line. That's how it should be everyday but sometimes you need to make an example of someone.

LOL. Like this is the first time I've been threatened with termination by some fool. What exactly would you fire me for? Stealing time? LOL. And when was that supposed to have happened? You've got to have a time and date, you can't just use "management logic" to conclude that time had to have been stolen because I didn't memorize some poorly worded prose that some on car sup chanted at me while I was driving. While I was driving, not screwing off, not stealing time. In fact every time I've "been taught" this stuff, I've either been driving, loading, or listening attentively to the sup chanting it. Stealing time? Yeah right.

So what would really happen is that you would try to fire me, get shot down by the union, and then even fewer of us would "toe the line." Soon enough you'd get so frustrated you'd do something stupid and then that would be the last we'd see of you. The company would tell us you left for "personal" reasons. Buh Bye.

 

[paidslave]

Well said Griff,

It seems the company doesn't care about safety or the customers for that matter. They care about the numbers. It's a shame.

Listen up! You may be right regarding safety and certainly correct about numbers but consider all of us are the company and all of us are the Union.

Most of us here cares about their own safety and it appears you do as well. It is your body and just work within your ability to do the job and don't let anyone intiimidate you working within your capacity including management.


When they don't care about safety that means we have to be extra safe!

 

[BigBrownSanta]

Here's my take on the DOK. I may be wrong but, oh well, who cares.

From what I've read here, most seem to agree it's good information to know but do not like having to spend their personal time to memorize it.

I plan to memorize the entire list (on the clock or off the clock). Then when they call me into the office, I plan to go off into total random directions. Jump up an down, discuss family, maybe act out a scene from Shakespeare. But every once in a while I will stop, look dead straight at the center manager, maybe lean on his desk and get face to face and recite a line. Then go back in another direction. My plan is to make the entire process take at least an hour. It probably won't last that long because they'll probably be angry after a while. They'll probably tell me to get the heck out of the office, but before I leave I will make it very clear that although I have the list memorized, I will probably draw a complete blank when asked by the keter auditor. Oh and also (very politely of course) tell him to have a nice day.

It's always better to play when YOU have the advantage. Learn it then play with them.

 

[hondo]

"DOK was intended to help create a safer work enviornment for UPS employees." ( or MAKE UPS MORE MONEY BY DECREASING THE AMOUNT OF INJURIES AND ACCIDENTS) Now its Safety First, OR ELSE!!!

The structure of their DOK plan is:
1st testing- Pass or Unsat.
if unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat = Warning
If unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat= suspension
if unsat. 48 hours and a retest- unsat= discharge

Reasons for this programs failure-
1) The test is to be given verbally by a sup. The results recorded on a bubble sheet. This makes the test inconsistant and unfair to the employee. What if the sup has issues with that driver?
2) Some drivers may have learning disabilities and/ or simply not test well. The testing must be in a controlled situation and prepared to each and every drivers individual learning levels.
3) Most importantly..... its not in the contract!!!!

If this discussion could in any way lead to my being disciplined or terminated, or affect my personal working conditions, I respectfully request that my Union steward, business agent, or Union officer be present at this meeting. Without representation, I choose not to answer any questions.

 

[IWorkAsDirected]

DS where is Ragalfart?

 

[moreluck]

I Work.....did you notice it's Trafalgar spelled backwards??