Discussion in 'UPS Discussions' started by bigmistake, Jul 25, 2019.
Bashing everyone but doesn’t give any advice. Maybe because you haven’t a clue.
Personally, I count ALL on-road hours(minus breaks, of course) as driving to my 11 a day. Nobody, NOBODY can tell me otherwise that driving and delivering packages is any less fatiguing than just driving.
Plus, anyone who works a minute over 14 hours in a day is immediately in violation, whether in a vehicle or not, as they are still ON DUTY, even if pushing a broom.
It really isn't that hard people.....
Well apparently it is hard because you’re wrong
§395.3(a)(3) reads: cannot drive more than 11 hours in a 14 hour period. It doesn't say 15 hour period, it doesn't say 16 hour period.... PERIOD = DUTY time.
1) drive=actively behind the wheel driving the vehicle is drive time
2) you can’t DRIVE anymore after 14 hours. You can however do any other kind of work you like. For as long as you like. Only stipulation is that you have 10 hours off before you drive again.
It may be, but your time not driving is not counted toward your 11 hour driving time.
Apparently it is, because you do not understand the HOS rules.
Go easy, he's FedEx.
I just love how confident some of people are that they know these rules and they’re clearly wrong.
Okay, that's why on our side, the employee and the managers immediately written up (not a verbal, an actual writeup) if an employee goes over 14 hours..... just because fedex loves its employees.
that and JJ Keller (whom I consulted on the rules) doesn't know the rules either.
You believe what you want, I'll take what advice I got from people who actually study it, teach, and sell compliance. I won't be the one staring at a ticket from the police for an HoS violation on it... because YOU are the professional driver. Not your oncar, not UPS, only yourself. You are responsible for knowing your hours and the law. Even if UPS or a fellow teamster tells you the wrong info, it's still your fault for violating.
If your company’s policy is that no one works over 14 hours than that’s their right.
That’s not however a DOT violation.
You need to go farther down, this is the part of 395.1 they are using:
(2) Operators of property-carrying commercial motor vehicles not requiring a commercial driver's license.Except as provided in this paragraph, a driver is exempt from the requirements of §§395.3(a)(2), 395.8, and 395.11 and ineligible to use the provisions of §395.1(e)(1), (g), and (o) if:
(i) The driver operates a property-carrying commercial motor vehicle for which a commercial driver's license is not required under part 383 of this subchapter;
(ii) The driver operates within a 150 air-mile radius of the location where the driver reports to and is released from work, i.e., the normal work reporting location;
(iii) The driver returns to the normal work reporting location at the end of each duty tour;
(iv) The driver does not drive:
(A) After the 14th hour after coming on duty on 5 days of any period of 7 consecutive days; and
(B) After the 16th hour after coming on duty on 2 days of any period of 7 consecutive days;
(v) The motor carrier that employs the driver maintains and retains for a period of 6 months accurate and true time records showing:
(A) The time the driver reports for duty each day;
(B) The total number of hours the driver is on duty each day;
(C) The time the driver is released from duty each day;
(D) The total time for the preceding 7 days in accordance with §395.8(j)(2) for drivers used for the first time or intermittently.
Then go farther down and read the definition of Driver-salesperson:
Driver-salesperson means any employee who is employed solely as such by a private carrier of property by commercial motor vehicle, who is engaged both in selling goods, services, or the use of goods, and in delivering by commercial motor vehicle the goods sold or provided or upon which the services are performed, who does so entirely within a radius of 100 miles of the point at which he/she reports for duty, who devotes not more than 50 percent of his/her hours on duty to driving time. The term selling goods for purposes of this section shall include in all cases solicitation or obtaining of reorders or new accounts, and may also include other selling or merchandising activities designed to retain the customer or to increase the sale of goods or services, in addition to solicitation or obtaining of reorders or new accounts.
395.1 (2) removes the 11 hour driving time limit and just makes it so you can't drive after 14 hours or 16 hours twice in one week.
That's where it gets sticky. I know some routes where driving is >50%, which nullifies them of a driver-salesperson. Think extended, remote areas, anything under 10 SPORH (minus bulky stops) starts getting into that danger zone.
One could also read the driver-salesperson as a bread-truck driver or route driver for, lets say, Culligan. Not where you're not humping 20 SPORH.
I had a guy get mad at me once because he told me all his lunch and breaks count towards his 60.
I told him no they count towards your 14 but they are considered off-duty time.
He got all upset saying if they were off duty time he could do anything he wants but he can't.
I told him he could just take his UPS shirt off.
This idiot tried to say "but I can't go get a beer so I'm not really off duty!"
It does not exempt the driver from §§395.3(a)(3), 11 hours of driving in 14 hours.
It only exempts the driver from §§395.3(a)(2), 395.8, and 395.11 as stated.
By that logic he’s never off duty because he can’t drink until 7 am then go to work.
He’s free to take off his ups shirt and go drink a beer but once he clocks back in he’s responsible for those actions lol
Pretty much exactly what I said. Except I added "that's the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard in my life!"
That's what I argued to the DOT when they first put in the 70/8 and they were unresponsive. Since it's all driving time once they go "on road" other than meals and breaks, working a package driver on road for over 12 hours should be a violation (11 hours plus 2-15 minute breaks and 1/2 hour meal "off duty" time here). The documented time at stops is typically less than a minute if you've ever read a SPARKS report, not long enough to have a Change of Duty status. Most of it is time-between-stops which is typically driving time. At some bulk stops it could be but your average UPS package driver does only a few bulk stops and some short business deliveries and lots of residential deliveries- especially during Peak when the seasonal are doing all the business and bargaining unit members are doing all the residential. In order to use the exemption they should have to limit your day to 11 hours "on road and whatever your meal/break time is per contract, but they aren't so effectively the 11 hour limit isn't being applied. All we need is someone to get killed by a fatigued package driver and a very good lawyer to make UPS bleed.
Kind of the same Catch 22 with the 11 hour. You're supposed to be "relieved of all responsibility" but you're responsible to be sober when you return to driving. You're not driving 11 hours because you keep stopping and starting but the time behind the wheel is longer than the time spent at most stops so no change of duty status. It's a conundrum.
The driver salesperson is pretty specific and even if some drivers do less than 50% driving they wouldn't be using that exemption for some and not all. The part about selling stuff then delivering that stuff doesn't apply to us. Heck, we don't even have "driver marketing" anymore to qualify as selling time. Being berated every morning to get a sales lead wouldn't really qualify.
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