Is lunch factored into hours of service?

104Feeder

Phoenix Feeder
It does not exempt the driver from §§395.3(a)(3), 11 hours of driving in 14 hours.

It only exempts the driver from §§395.3(a)(2), 395.8, and 395.11 as stated.
Actually if you read 395.3 (a)(3) (3) Driving time and rest breaks. (i) Driving time. A driver may drive a total of 11 hours during the 14-hour period specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
but (a)(2) is nullified in the 395.1 non-CDL driver short haul exemption so it has nothing to specify to effectively nullifying it also. The 395.1 exemption has it's own definition of what can be done during the 14 hour period. It would be nice if they had at least issued an interpretation to my complaint, but another Steward here had the same issues getting DOT to act on another issue. UPS has a pretty good stranglehold on them.
 

Mugarolla

Light 'em up!
Actually if you read 395.3 (a)(3) (3) Driving time and rest breaks. (i) Driving time. A driver may drive a total of 11 hours during the 14-hour period specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
but (a)(2) is nullified in the 395.1 non-CDL driver short haul exemption so it has nothing to specify to effectively nullifying it also. The 395.1 exemption has it's own definition of what can be done during the 14 hour period. It would be nice if they had at least issued an interpretation to my complaint, but another Steward here had the same issues getting DOT to act on another issue. UPS has a pretty good stranglehold on them.
I think that if the FMCSA did not want (A)(3) to apply, they would have specified that, instead of having people trying to infer that if (A)(2) did not apply and (A)(3) was based on (A)(2) then (A)(3) does not apply

I agree with Foley that certain hours of service rules apply no matter what.

Whether you use the regular hours of service, 100 air mile exemption, or the 150 air mile exemption, the 11-hour driving rule still applies.

Hours of Service: The 100/150 Air Mile Exemptions
 

Brownslave688

You want a toe? I can get you a toe.
Okay, that's why on our side, the employee and the managers immediately written up (not a verbal, an actual writeup) if an employee goes over 14 hours..... just because fedex loves its employees.

that and JJ Keller (whom I consulted on the rules) doesn't know the rules either.

You believe what you want, I'll take what advice I got from people who actually study it, teach, and sell compliance. I won't be the one staring at a ticket from the police for an HoS violation on it... because YOU are the professional driver. Not your oncar, not UPS, only yourself. You are responsible for knowing your hours and the law. Even if UPS or a fellow teamster tells you the wrong info, it's still your fault for violating.
Lmfao. Study it, teach it. It’s a couple pages long maybe. It ain’t freaking rocket science.
 

RolloTony Brown Town

Well-Known Member
The memory is the second thing that goes.



Correct.

They are also exempt from the 30 minute rest period before 8 hours of on duty time.

And, as long as they are relieved of duty within 12 hours. Anyone working over 12 hours without taking a lunch until the end of day has violated HOS.



Yes.



Incorrect.

They are still subject to only 11 hours of driving.



Correct.

But they still must follow 11 hours of driving time.

Even working 14 hours, no package driver will drive for more than 11 hours, but, the 11 hour rule still applies.



Correct.

Even if you are not spending half your time not driving.

Just a quarter of the time not driving, say a 200 mile 60 stop country route, you will never exceed 11 hours drive time.



Incorrect.



You did, and you are correct, on this point.

But, all other time for a package driver is considered on duty, not on duty-driving as you posted.



Electronic Code of Federal Regulations

PART 395—HOURS OF SERVICE OF DRIVERS

§395.1 Scope of rules in this part

(e) Short-haul operations—(1) 100 air-mile radius driver. A driver is exempt from the requirements of §§395.8 and 395.11 if:

(i) The driver operates within a 100 air-mile radius of the normal work reporting location;

(ii)(A) The driver, except a driver-salesperson or a driver of a ready-mixed concrete delivery vehicle, returns to the work reporting location and is released from work within 12 consecutive hours;

(B) The driver of a ready-mixed concrete delivery vehicle returns to the work reporting location and is released from work within 14 consecutive hours;

(iii)(A) A property-carrying commercial motor vehicle driver, except the driver of a ready-mixed concrete delivery vehicle, has at least 10 consecutive hours off duty separating each 12 hours on duty;

(B) A driver of a ready-mixed concrete delivery vehicle has at least 10 consecutive hours off duty separating each 14 hours on duty;

(C) A passenger-carrying commercial motor vehicle driver has at least 8 consecutive hours off duty separating each 12 hours on duty;

(iv)(A) A property-carrying commercial motor vehicle driver, except the driver of a ready-mixed concrete delivery vehicle, does not exceed the maximum driving time specified in §395.3(a)(3) following 10 consecutive hours off duty;

And here is §395.3(a)(3)

(3) Driving time and rest breaks. (i) Driving time. A driver may drive a total of 11 hours during the 14-hour period specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section.

You obviously aren’t getting what’s being said here..

The 11 hour rule is still in effect but...

The odds that your drive time gets close to 11 hours without working well past your 14th hour is highly unlikely. Think about it... if you didn’t have to stop to make a delivery at 200 different places, would it take you 11 hours to drive around town and drive back? No.. no it won’t.
 

542thruNthru

Well-Known Member
You obviously aren’t getting what’s being said here..

The 11 hour rule is still in effect but...

The odds that your drive time gets close to 11 hours without working well past your 14th hour is highly unlikely. Think about it... if you didn’t have to stop to make a delivery at 200 different places, would it take you 11 hours to drive around town and drive back? No.. no it won’t.

Umm he said exactly that in the post you quoted.

Even working 14 hours, no package driver will drive for more than 11 hours, but, the 11 hour rule still applies.
But, all other time for a package driver is considered on duty, not on duty-driving as you posted.
 

104Feeder

Phoenix Feeder
Thanks @542thruNthru.

Also, @104Feeder says package drivers are not subject to the 11 hour driving rule.

This may be a gray area, but a moot point because I did say that a package driver will never exceed 11 hours driving.
It is moot because of the record keeping requirements. All that is required is basically a timecard. But think about it: how would you record a package drivers day on a logbook? UPS basically lost the argument before that their IVIS was compliant with the new rules when they got their extension and were forced to implement the phone based one we use today. They claimed as feeder drivers we get in and out too often to comply with the recordkeeping requirements. Now the IVIS will record more accurate on duty vs on duty-driving times, and change your duty status. When you leave building as a package driver you change from "on duty" to "on duty-driving", agreed? Before, because of the 15 minute increments on a logbook, you didn't change your duty status unless you went over 7 minutes- so if you ran inside somewhere to use the restroom and came back behind the wheel in that time your duty status would still be accurate. Go over and you were technically in violation for not changing duty status. As a package driver you leave building and go to your first air stop. Typically, as I've seen on SPARKS reports (do they still call them that?) you will spend less than a minute at a residential stop and two minutes between stops (driving) with longer driving times between neighborhoods or travel time to pickups/air meets and longer non-driving times at bulk stops, pickups, or air drop off meets. A typical drivers day has extended driving times at the end of the day you're running off shags or sometimes even returning to the building and going back out. Assuming a 15 minute period at Start Work and another at RTB, then add an hour personal Off Duty time and you've got 12.5 hours on road. Assuming a 150 stop day with say 1 minute per stop on average and now you only have 10 hours of driving time even though that's not going to be reflected on a log in any sort of accurate form. So saying they are held to the 11 hour driving rule is moot because there really isn't any way to show that. The assumption is that by being within 150 air miles (typically you average 45 miles an hour over a trip) you aren't going to be able to accumulate 11 hours of driving in a 14 hour period.

I appreciate the links but those are really just the same as lawyer website blogs, just opinions. Foleys is just an office in a mixed residential/commercial building. What's needed is an actual interpretation by the FMCSA. I LOLd at the suggestion that government regulations are plainly written to mean what they say, as a lot of administrative law judges would be out of jobs.

Speaking of interpretations, this one wasn't there when I was arguing against putting Package drivers on the 70/8 hour week:

Question 6: If a motor carrier operates under the 70-hour/8-day rule, does any aspect of the 60-hour rule apply to its operations? If a motor carrier operates under the60-hour/7-day rule, does any part of the 70-hour rule apply to its operations?

Guidance:

If a motor carrier operates 7 days per week and chooses to require all of its drivers to comply with the 70-hour/8-day rule, the 60-hour/7-day rule would not be applicable to these drivers. If this carrier chooses to assign some or all of its drivers to the 60-hour/7-day rule, the 70-hour rule would not be applicable to these drivers. Conversely, if a motor carrier does not operate 7 days per week, it must operate under the 60-hour/7-day rule and the 70-hour rule would not apply to its operations.

We operate 7 days a week and all under the same DOT number. I find it interesting that Sleepers is always under the 70/8 while they put regular Feeders and Package under 60/7 then change at will. Seems like we should all be under one or the other, which doesn't help get package drivers out of the 70.
 

Zowert

Well-Known Member
As already mentioned, you’re off the clock during lunch. That time doesn’t count toward your 60.
 

What'dyabringmetoday???

Well-Known Member
It is moot because of the record keeping requirements. All that is required is basically a timecard. But think about it: how would you record a package drivers day on a logbook? UPS basically lost the argument before that their IVIS was compliant with the new rules when they got their extension and were forced to implement the phone based one we use today. They claimed as feeder drivers we get in and out too often to comply with the recordkeeping requirements. Now the IVIS will record more accurate on duty vs on duty-driving times, and change your duty status. When you leave building as a package driver you change from "on duty" to "on duty-driving", agreed? Before, because of the 15 minute increments on a logbook, you didn't change your duty status unless you went over 7 minutes- so if you ran inside somewhere to use the restroom and came back behind the wheel in that time your duty status would still be accurate. Go over and you were technically in violation for not changing duty status. As a package driver you leave building and go to your first air stop. Typically, as I've seen on SPARKS reports (do they still call them that?) you will spend less than a minute at a residential stop and two minutes between stops (driving) with longer driving times between neighborhoods or travel time to pickups/air meets and longer non-driving times at bulk stops, pickups, or air drop off meets. A typical drivers day has extended driving times at the end of the day you're running off shags or sometimes even returning to the building and going back out. Assuming a 15 minute period at Start Work and another at RTB, then add an hour personal Off Duty time and you've got 12.5 hours on road. Assuming a 150 stop day with say 1 minute per stop on average and now you only have 10 hours of driving time even though that's not going to be reflected on a log in any sort of accurate form. So saying they are held to the 11 hour driving rule is moot because there really isn't any way to show that. The assumption is that by being within 150 air miles (typically you average 45 miles an hour over a trip) you aren't going to be able to accumulate 11 hours of driving in a 14 hour period.

I appreciate the links but those are really just the same as lawyer website blogs, just opinions. Foleys is just an office in a mixed residential/commercial building. What's needed is an actual interpretation by the FMCSA. I LOLd at the suggestion that government regulations are plainly written to mean what they say, as a lot of administrative law judges would be out of jobs.

Speaking of interpretations, this one wasn't there when I was arguing against putting Package drivers on the 70/8 hour week:

Question 6: If a motor carrier operates under the 70-hour/8-day rule, does any aspect of the 60-hour rule apply to its operations? If a motor carrier operates under the60-hour/7-day rule, does any part of the 70-hour rule apply to its operations?

Guidance:

If a motor carrier operates 7 days per week and chooses to require all of its drivers to comply with the 70-hour/8-day rule, the 60-hour/7-day rule would not be applicable to these drivers. If this carrier chooses to assign some or all of its drivers to the 60-hour/7-day rule, the 70-hour rule would not be applicable to these drivers. Conversely, if a motor carrier does not operate 7 days per week, it must operate under the 60-hour/7-day rule and the 70-hour rule would not apply to its operations.

We operate 7 days a week and all under the same DOT number. I find it interesting that Sleepers is always under the 70/8 while they put regular Feeders and Package under 60/7 then change at will. Seems like we should all be under one or the other, which doesn't help get package drivers out of the 70.
If you dig through the rules enough, I believe that a log is required for the 11 drive time/14 total. Otherwise, drivers are to be off the clock by 12 hours. What's 12x5? Of course- I could have imagined all of this.... lol.
 

BigUnionGuy

Got the T-Shirt
It is moot because of the record keeping requirements. All that is required is basically a timecard. But think about it: how would you record a package drivers day on a logbook? UPS basically lost the argument before that their IVIS was compliant with the new rules when they got their extension and were forced to implement the phone based one we use today. They claimed as feeder drivers we get in and out too often to comply with the recordkeeping requirements. Now the IVIS will record more accurate on duty vs on duty-driving times, and change your duty status. When you leave building as a package driver you change from "on duty" to "on duty-driving", agreed? Before, because of the 15 minute increments on a logbook, you didn't change your duty status unless you went over 7 minutes- so if you ran inside somewhere to use the restroom and came back behind the wheel in that time your duty status would still be accurate. Go over and you were technically in violation for not changing duty status. As a package driver you leave building and go to your first air stop. Typically, as I've seen on SPARKS reports (do they still call them that?) you will spend less than a minute at a residential stop and two minutes between stops (driving) with longer driving times between neighborhoods or travel time to pickups/air meets and longer non-driving times at bulk stops, pickups, or air drop off meets. A typical drivers day has extended driving times at the end of the day you're running off shags or sometimes even returning to the building and going back out. Assuming a 15 minute period at Start Work and another at RTB, then add an hour personal Off Duty time and you've got 12.5 hours on road. Assuming a 150 stop day with say 1 minute per stop on average and now you only have 10 hours of driving time even though that's not going to be reflected on a log in any sort of accurate form. So saying they are held to the 11 hour driving rule is moot because there really isn't any way to show that. The assumption is that by being within 150 air miles (typically you average 45 miles an hour over a trip) you aren't going to be able to accumulate 11 hours of driving in a 14 hour period.

I appreciate the links but those are really just the same as lawyer website blogs, just opinions. Foleys is just an office in a mixed residential/commercial building. What's needed is an actual interpretation by the FMCSA. I LOLd at the suggestion that government regulations are plainly written to mean what they say, as a lot of administrative law judges would be out of jobs.

Speaking of interpretations, this one wasn't there when I was arguing against putting Package drivers on the 70/8 hour week:

Question 6: If a motor carrier operates under the 70-hour/8-day rule, does any aspect of the 60-hour rule apply to its operations? If a motor carrier operates under the60-hour/7-day rule, does any part of the 70-hour rule apply to its operations?

Guidance:

If a motor carrier operates 7 days per week and chooses to require all of its drivers to comply with the 70-hour/8-day rule, the 60-hour/7-day rule would not be applicable to these drivers. If this carrier chooses to assign some or all of its drivers to the 60-hour/7-day rule, the 70-hour rule would not be applicable to these drivers. Conversely, if a motor carrier does not operate 7 days per week, it must operate under the 60-hour/7-day rule and the 70-hour rule would not apply to its operations.

We operate 7 days a week and all under the same DOT number. I find it interesting that Sleepers is always under the 70/8 while they put regular Feeders and Package under 60/7 then change at will. Seems like we should all be under one or the other, which doesn't help get package drivers out of the 70.

I hope.... @What'dyabringmetoday??? doesn't see this.
 

Mugarolla

Light 'em up!
What's needed is an actual interpretation by the FMCSA. I LOLd at the suggestion that government regulations are plainly written to mean what they say, as a lot of administrative law judges would be out of jobs.
I agree and everybody will, and can, interpret the regulations differently.

The one good thing is that this is about the only area that is vague in the HOS, and it doesn't really make a difference which way it is interpreted.

The rest of the regulations are pretty much black and white.

The government isn't the only entity to write laws, or a contract, plainly and to say what it means, without ambiguity.

The National Panel is in existence to "interpret" the language of the contract.

And how about this one....


Central Region Supplement

Article 15

Section 1

A regular seniority employee shall not be required to work on the following eight (8) named holidays......

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays.....


 

104Feeder

Phoenix Feeder
I agree and everybody will, and can, interpret the regulations differently.

The one good thing is that this is about the only area that is vague in the HOS, and it doesn't really make a difference which way it is interpreted.

The rest of the regulations are pretty much black and white.

The government isn't the only entity to write laws, or a contract, plainly and to say what it means, without ambiguity.

The National Panel is in existence to "interpret" the language of the contract.

And how about this one....


Central Region Supplement

Article 15

Section 1

A regular seniority employee shall not be required to work on the following eight (8) named holidays......

Section 4

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays.....
Hah, that's rich! Ours just says the Company "recognizes the desirability of minimizing the number of employees working on Holidays" and that they "shall be granted without reduction in pay", then Art 40 gets you paid at overtime. The Feeder work rules allow the Company to advance or delay our holiday. What a letdown it must be to read your contradictory language.

Hey I enjoyed the discussion. Glad we clarified which exemption is being utilized and it gave me a reason to read the latest interpretations.
 

Mugarolla

Light 'em up!
Hah, that's rich! Ours just says the Company "recognizes the desirability of minimizing the number of employees working on Holidays" and that they "shall be granted without reduction in pay", then Art 40 gets you paid at overtime. The Feeder work rules allow the Company to advance or delay our holiday. What a letdown it must be to read your contradictory language.

Hey I enjoyed the discussion. Glad we clarified which exemption is being utilized and it gave me a reason to read the latest interpretations.
I enjoyed it also. Always like a good, civil, debate.

I never have issues with people having a different opinion than mine and always encourage them to try and change my view to theirs, if they can.

I would like to see an official clarification on this issue from the FMCSA, just for reference.
 

104Feeder

Phoenix Feeder
I enjoyed it also. Always like a good, civil, debate.

I never have issues with people having a different opinion than mine and always encourage them to try and change my view to theirs, if they can.

I would like to see an official clarification on this issue from the FMCSA, just for reference.
I forgot about this interpretation, goes back to what I was saying before about on-duty driving being from when you leave the building. Shifting is pretty similar with the stop/starts & no CDL necessarily.

Question 9: A driver drives on streets and highways during the week and jockeys Commercial Motor Vehicles in the yard (private property) on weekends. How is the yard time to be recorded?

Guidance: On-duty (driving).
 

Mugarolla

Light 'em up!
I forgot about this interpretation, goes back to what I was saying before about on-duty driving being from when you leave the building. Shifting is pretty similar with the stop/starts & no CDL necessarily.

Question 9: A driver drives on streets and highways during the week and jockeys Commercial Motor Vehicles in the yard (private property) on weekends. How is the yard time to be recorded?

Guidance: On-duty (driving).
That guidance is old and outdated and should be removed from their site.

The FMCSA has updated their ELD logging procedure and you can log yard moves as on-duty not driving.

Yard Moves: A driver can record periods of yard moves.

Using ELDs



Logging Yard Moves
A Yard Move is a manual driver event used to track in-yard driving time. Time is recorded against a driver’s On-Duty clock, but not Driving Time. If Driving Time is accidentally logged as Yard Move, the log must be edited by either the carrier or the driver.


Understanding Manual Driver Events: Personal Conveyance and Yard Move - ELD Facts



Yard Moves – The ELD Mandate has introduced a new special status called “Yard Move”. The exact rules for using this status are not yet completely clear, but the idea is that driving done in a limited access lot or yard can be performed in On Duty status (rather than Driving status). The goal here is to allow drivers to move their trucks within a large facility, without counting that as real road-driving time. It may apply to moving within truck stop parking lots as well, but this is not yet clear.

Hours of Service Rules - ELD Ratings



Yard moves
In the past, fleets utilizing electronic logs have dealt with the necessity of moving trucks around the home yard by establishing certain time/distance thresholds with their software providers. The mandate, however, has established a single set of thresholds for all ELDs


Under the mandate’s terms, a new Yard Moves feature will allow a driver or other personnel to perform those duties in an on-duty, not driving status without triggering the device by reaching the thresholds.

ELD mandate: Feb. effective date, details on yard moves, personal conveyance




These two categories provide some needed flexibility by allowing “authorized personal use” of a CMV to be electronically recorded as off-duty time on line 1, when that category is allowed by a company and selected by one of its drivers. And, if allowed and used, the “yard moves” category is authorized by the rules to be electronically recorded as on-duty, not driving time on line 4.

Understanding ELD Mandate Rules | Transportation Solutions | Trimble
 

104Feeder

Phoenix Feeder
It's still on there because it's a different situation than described in your quotes. The last paragraph makes it clear it's something different with "authorized personal use". It's talking about limited activity dropping your trailer and moving to a parking area. I can't see the FMCSA saying you can shift for 10 hours then go drive 4 or 6 hours and be OK. That's just not reasonable.
 
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