Is lunch factored into hours of service?

Discussion in 'UPS Discussions' started by bigmistake, Jul 25, 2019.

  1. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Actually if you read 395.3 (a)(3) (3) Driving time and rest breaks. (i) Driving time. A driver may drive a total of 11 hours during the 14-hour period specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section.
    but (a)(2) is nullified in the 395.1 non-CDL driver short haul exemption so it has nothing to specify to effectively nullifying it also. The 395.1 exemption has it's own definition of what can be done during the 14 hour period. It would be nice if they had at least issued an interpretation to my complaint, but another Steward here had the same issues getting DOT to act on another issue. UPS has a pretty good stranglehold on them.
  2. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    I think that if the FMCSA did not want (A)(3) to apply, they would have specified that, instead of having people trying to infer that if (A)(2) did not apply and (A)(3) was based on (A)(2) then (A)(3) does not apply

    I agree with Foley that certain hours of service rules apply no matter what.

    Whether you use the regular hours of service, 100 air mile exemption, or the 150 air mile exemption, the 11-hour driving rule still applies.

    Hours of Service: The 100/150 Air Mile Exemptions
  3. Maple Grove MN Driver

    Maple Grove MN Driver Cocaine Mang!

    Take your own advice
  4. Brownslave688

    Brownslave688 You want a toe? I can get you a toe.

    Lmfao. Study it, teach it. It’s a couple pages long maybe. It ain’t freaking rocket science.
  5. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

  6. RolloTony Brown Town

    RolloTony Brown Town Active Member

    You obviously aren’t getting what’s being said here..

    The 11 hour rule is still in effect but...

    The odds that your drive time gets close to 11 hours without working well past your 14th hour is highly unlikely. Think about it... if you didn’t have to stop to make a delivery at 200 different places, would it take you 11 hours to drive around town and drive back? No.. no it won’t.
  7. 542thruNthru

    542thruNthru Well-Known Member

    Umm he said exactly that in the post you quoted.

  8. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    Thanks @542thruNthru.

    Also, @104Feeder says package drivers are not subject to the 11 hour driving rule.

    This may be a gray area, but a moot point because I did say that a package driver will never exceed 11 hours driving.
  9. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    Not according to @104Feeder.

    Reread my post you quoted.
  10. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    It is moot because of the record keeping requirements. All that is required is basically a timecard. But think about it: how would you record a package drivers day on a logbook? UPS basically lost the argument before that their IVIS was compliant with the new rules when they got their extension and were forced to implement the phone based one we use today. They claimed as feeder drivers we get in and out too often to comply with the recordkeeping requirements. Now the IVIS will record more accurate on duty vs on duty-driving times, and change your duty status. When you leave building as a package driver you change from "on duty" to "on duty-driving", agreed? Before, because of the 15 minute increments on a logbook, you didn't change your duty status unless you went over 7 minutes- so if you ran inside somewhere to use the restroom and came back behind the wheel in that time your duty status would still be accurate. Go over and you were technically in violation for not changing duty status. As a package driver you leave building and go to your first air stop. Typically, as I've seen on SPARKS reports (do they still call them that?) you will spend less than a minute at a residential stop and two minutes between stops (driving) with longer driving times between neighborhoods or travel time to pickups/air meets and longer non-driving times at bulk stops, pickups, or air drop off meets. A typical drivers day has extended driving times at the end of the day you're running off shags or sometimes even returning to the building and going back out. Assuming a 15 minute period at Start Work and another at RTB, then add an hour personal Off Duty time and you've got 12.5 hours on road. Assuming a 150 stop day with say 1 minute per stop on average and now you only have 10 hours of driving time even though that's not going to be reflected on a log in any sort of accurate form. So saying they are held to the 11 hour driving rule is moot because there really isn't any way to show that. The assumption is that by being within 150 air miles (typically you average 45 miles an hour over a trip) you aren't going to be able to accumulate 11 hours of driving in a 14 hour period.

    I appreciate the links but those are really just the same as lawyer website blogs, just opinions. Foleys is just an office in a mixed residential/commercial building. What's needed is an actual interpretation by the FMCSA. I LOLd at the suggestion that government regulations are plainly written to mean what they say, as a lot of administrative law judges would be out of jobs.

    Speaking of interpretations, this one wasn't there when I was arguing against putting Package drivers on the 70/8 hour week:

    Question 6: If a motor carrier operates under the 70-hour/8-day rule, does any aspect of the 60-hour rule apply to its operations? If a motor carrier operates under the60-hour/7-day rule, does any part of the 70-hour rule apply to its operations?


    If a motor carrier operates 7 days per week and chooses to require all of its drivers to comply with the 70-hour/8-day rule, the 60-hour/7-day rule would not be applicable to these drivers. If this carrier chooses to assign some or all of its drivers to the 60-hour/7-day rule, the 70-hour rule would not be applicable to these drivers. Conversely, if a motor carrier does not operate 7 days per week, it must operate under the 60-hour/7-day rule and the 70-hour rule would not apply to its operations.

    We operate 7 days a week and all under the same DOT number. I find it interesting that Sleepers is always under the 70/8 while they put regular Feeders and Package under 60/7 then change at will. Seems like we should all be under one or the other, which doesn't help get package drivers out of the 70.
  11. Zowert

    Zowert Active Member

    As already mentioned, you’re off the clock during lunch. That time doesn’t count toward your 60.
  12. What'dyabringmetoday???

    What'dyabringmetoday??? Well-Known Member

    If you dig through the rules enough, I believe that a log is required for the 11 drive time/14 total. Otherwise, drivers are to be off the clock by 12 hours. What's 12x5? Of course- I could have imagined all of this.... lol.
  13. BigUnionGuy

    BigUnionGuy Got the T-Shirt

    I hope.... @What'dyabringmetoday??? doesn't see this.
  14. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    I agree and everybody will, and can, interpret the regulations differently.

    The one good thing is that this is about the only area that is vague in the HOS, and it doesn't really make a difference which way it is interpreted.

    The rest of the regulations are pretty much black and white.

    The government isn't the only entity to write laws, or a contract, plainly and to say what it means, without ambiguity.

    The National Panel is in existence to "interpret" the language of the contract.

    And how about this one....

    Central Region Supplement

    Article 15

    Section 1

    A regular seniority employee shall not be required to work on the following eight (8) named holidays......

    Section 4

    Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, regular seniority employees required to work on any of the above named holidays.....

  15. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    Hah, that's rich! Ours just says the Company "recognizes the desirability of minimizing the number of employees working on Holidays" and that they "shall be granted without reduction in pay", then Art 40 gets you paid at overtime. The Feeder work rules allow the Company to advance or delay our holiday. What a letdown it must be to read your contradictory language.

    Hey I enjoyed the discussion. Glad we clarified which exemption is being utilized and it gave me a reason to read the latest interpretations.
  16. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    I enjoyed it also. Always like a good, civil, debate.

    I never have issues with people having a different opinion than mine and always encourage them to try and change my view to theirs, if they can.

    I would like to see an official clarification on this issue from the FMCSA, just for reference.
  17. What'dyabringmetoday???

    What'dyabringmetoday??? Well-Known Member

  18. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    I forgot about this interpretation, goes back to what I was saying before about on-duty driving being from when you leave the building. Shifting is pretty similar with the stop/starts & no CDL necessarily.

    Question 9: A driver drives on streets and highways during the week and jockeys Commercial Motor Vehicles in the yard (private property) on weekends. How is the yard time to be recorded?

    Guidance: On-duty (driving).
  19. Mugarolla

    Mugarolla Light 'em up!

    That guidance is old and outdated and should be removed from their site.

    The FMCSA has updated their ELD logging procedure and you can log yard moves as on-duty not driving.

    Yard Moves: A driver can record periods of yard moves.

    Using ELDs

    Logging Yard Moves
    A Yard Move is a manual driver event used to track in-yard driving time. Time is recorded against a driver’s On-Duty clock, but not Driving Time. If Driving Time is accidentally logged as Yard Move, the log must be edited by either the carrier or the driver.

    Understanding Manual Driver Events: Personal Conveyance and Yard Move - ELD Facts

    Yard Moves – The ELD Mandate has introduced a new special status called “Yard Move”. The exact rules for using this status are not yet completely clear, but the idea is that driving done in a limited access lot or yard can be performed in On Duty status (rather than Driving status). The goal here is to allow drivers to move their trucks within a large facility, without counting that as real road-driving time. It may apply to moving within truck stop parking lots as well, but this is not yet clear.

    Hours of Service Rules - ELD Ratings

    Yard moves
    In the past, fleets utilizing electronic logs have dealt with the necessity of moving trucks around the home yard by establishing certain time/distance thresholds with their software providers. The mandate, however, has established a single set of thresholds for all ELDs

    Under the mandate’s terms, a new Yard Moves feature will allow a driver or other personnel to perform those duties in an on-duty, not driving status without triggering the device by reaching the thresholds.

    ELD mandate: Feb. effective date, details on yard moves, personal conveyance

    These two categories provide some needed flexibility by allowing “authorized personal use” of a CMV to be electronically recorded as off-duty time on line 1, when that category is allowed by a company and selected by one of its drivers. And, if allowed and used, the “yard moves” category is authorized by the rules to be electronically recorded as on-duty, not driving time on line 4.

    Understanding ELD Mandate Rules | Transportation Solutions | Trimble
  20. 104Feeder

    104Feeder Phoenix Feeder

    It's still on there because it's a different situation than described in your quotes. The last paragraph makes it clear it's something different with "authorized personal use". It's talking about limited activity dropping your trailer and moving to a parking area. I can't see the FMCSA saying you can shift for 10 hours then go drive 4 or 6 hours and be OK. That's just not reasonable.