New GPS Time Study: What they are not telling you

[Bubblehead]

tell that to the many members who are now being threatened with 5 day suspensions

Threatened being the key word.
How many have been served after being grieved?
None, right?
It's a calculated bluff being perpetrated on the weak of heart.
Why?
Because it works.
Call the bluff or be bullied, it's up to you.

 

[grgrcr88]

If your being disciplined for over/under all you have to do is grieve it. A panel will not even hear the case. The company will not even take it to a panel. As I stated we do not recognize the time studies for any reason. I will tell any one you want me to!!!

 

[Coldworld]

If your being disciplined for over/under all you have to do is grieve it. A panel will not even hear the case. The company will not even take it to a panel. As I stated we do not recognize the time studies for any reason. I will tell any one you want me to!!!

grgrcr, do you think there will be a time where if ups opened up on how they get these allowances and have a redo of all the elements of the allowance to 2010 standards, do you think the union would ever agree to this. The allowances would have to be stop specific...not an average...but I would think that ups probably wouldnt want to go there because they would really have to open up on the allowances and the union could get folks who are experts in statistics and the like to challenge some of the items...any thoughts???

 

[Coldworld]

That may be so in your center. Overall, most centers gained some time.

P-Man

Can you explain why these new allowances seem to change right around the time the economy went south. You are well respected around here, but as you have read over and over on here drivers who are being ridden with over and over for having overallowance issues, but at one time, in some cases not that long ago, were scratch or bonus drivers. You probably have also read of sups going out with drivers wondering where an hour or so was lost...and really have no explanation on why someone is overallowed...please explain this. You say that in some cases its the time allowance being wrong....but you would NEVER hear any sups on the record say anything remotely close to your words. Drivers who have NEVER been ridden with now have rides al the time. Come on, something isnt right here. Most bulk business routes could scratch just by the number of packages they delivered...not anymore. Mall routes have totally lost time. I work 2 times as hard as someone who has a total walk through but Im the one overallowed. Im sorry, I respect you so much on here but imo 9/10 times the allowance is bulls*it..period. Mgt doesnt care about the blown out car(which is a no-no with the allowance, total ovewrallowed from the start), they dont want to fix the problem, they dont want to hear about the problem, once that car leaves the barn its the drivers fault, issue, whatever way you want to state it. Ups changed the numbers just so they could cut out cars and "justify" running more stops per hour. Its a joke, especially when they try to hold you to them, especially in 9/10 times mgt could NEVER run those numbers. End of rant, did I mention how much I appreciate your opinions on here...

 

[pretzel_man]

Can you explain why these new allowances seem to change right around the time the economy went south. You are well respected around here, but as you have read over and over on here drivers who are being ridden with over and over for having overallowance issues, but at one time, in some cases not that long ago, were scratch or bonus drivers. You probably have also read of sups going out with drivers wondering where an hour or so was lost...and really have no explanation on why someone is overallowed...please explain this. You say that in some cases its the time allowance being wrong....but you would NEVER hear any sups on the record say anything remotely close to your words. Drivers who have NEVER been ridden with now have rides al the time. Come on, something isnt right here. Most bulk business routes could scratch just by the number of packages they delivered...not anymore. Mall routes have totally lost time. I work 2 times as hard as someone who has a total walk through but Im the one overallowed. Im sorry, I respect you so much on here but imo 9/10 times the allowance is bulls*it..period. Mgt doesnt care about the blown out car(which is a no-no with the allowance, total ovewrallowed from the start), they dont want to fix the problem, they dont want to hear about the problem, once that car leaves the barn its the drivers fault, issue, whatever way you want to state it. Ups changed the numbers just so they could cut out cars and "justify" running more stops per hour. Its a joke, especially when they try to hold you to them, especially in 9/10 times mgt could NEVER run those numbers. End of rant, did I mention how much I appreciate your opinions on here...

I can guarantee you that the change in economy and the new time study system are totally unrelated. Think about it. The system development had to begin well before it was implemented. The concept of how to do it had to begin much before that. The new ime study system is a very good and ingenious concept.

As I said, most centers gained time with the new system...

Now, the focus on cost reduction, reducing miles, reducing overallowed, etc. is related to the economy. This would have happened whether the new time study system was created or not.

P-Man

 

[bigbrownhen]

Perhaps I missed the info in this thread, but could someone explain how the time study affects a rural route. I can understand the in town routes. Most rural route's resi deliveries are not close to the road. My next question is how does speed factor into a time study if at all? The legal speed limit may be 45mph on a rural road, but everyone knows that is usually not a safe speed to drive down a narrow country road. Does the study account for distance between stops? Just wondering how the different routes compare in the studies.

 

[OU Fever]

I also run a mall route, I and past drivers of this route have always been 2 + hours over allowed. For the past 9 months I have been required to finish the mall and come back to the HUB and get a 700 with 50 resi's on it and go run it. This gives me more miles but also another 2 hours on my day. I finally started greiving this and they cut the resi's in half but I'm still over 9.5 most days because BTS and then Peak season at the mall have already started. My sups continue to cut into my family time because of the "grand PLAN ". Is there anyone else in this brownland that has a solution? I wait with baited breath........

 

[Tired Driver]

Not 1 driver out of 80 has gained time with this new time study where I work.

 

[grgrcr88]

grgrcr, do you think there will be a time where if ups opened up on how they get these allowances and have a redo of all the elements of the allowance to 2010 standards, do you think the union would ever agree to this. The allowances would have to be stop specific...not an average...but I would think that ups probably wouldn't want to go there because they would really have to open up on the allowances and the union could get folks who are experts in statistics and the like to challenge some of the items...any thoughts???

No, the problem is that every person is different. How do you apply a time study based on one persons ability to perform a task to every other person in the company. The Union will never recognize the companies time studies no matter how open they are with it.

 

[Tired Driver]

I am with you grgrcr88. I get paid by the hour.

 

[pretzel_man]

Not 1 driver out of 80 has gained time with this new time study where I work.

No, the problem is that every person is different. How do you apply a time study based on one persons ability to perform a task to every other person in the company. The Union will never recognize the companies time studies no matter how open they are with it.

Unusual that no gain in time even for a single area was seen. The average in the country saw a gain in time. You may be right, its just unusual.

Time studies and work measurement have nothing to do with the performance of the driver. It doesn't matter if you go fast, slow, cut corners, etc. The time study will remain the same. The study studies the route, not the driver. The observer is gathering characteristics of the stops (building type, walk distances, etc)

The new time study program is just a more scientific method for doing so. Its easily audited, reduces time to calculate the studies, and is more precise.

As was said, it becomes irrevelant.... You won't recognize the time study, so you don't want to know about the new system. Therefore, you could never agree to a bonus system since it will always be based on some time study system.

I just don't understand why you complain about a system that you refuse to learn about?

P-Man

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Unusual that no gain in time even for a single area was seen. The average in the country saw a gain in time. You may be right, its just unusual.

Time studies and work measurement have nothing to do with the performance of the driver. It doesn't matter if you go fast, slow, cut corners, etc. The time study will remain the same. The study studies the route, not the driver. The observer is gathering characteristics of the stops (building type, walk distances, etc)

The new time study program is just a more scientific method for doing so. Its easily audited, reduces time to calculate the studies, and is more precise.

As was said, it becomes irrevelant.... You won't recognize the time study, so you don't want to know about the new system. Therefore, you could never agree to a bonus system since it will always be based on some time study system.

I just don't understand why you complain about a system that you refuse to learn about?

P-Man

Okay, I want to learn. Please start a new thread on this GPS Timestudy and post the specifics. What you think is good, bad and everything in between. Lay it out for us to pick apart, and let us be the judge.

 

[pretzel_man]

Okay, I want to learn. Please start a new thread on this GPS Timestudy and post the specifics. What you think is good, bad and everything in between. Lay it out for us to pick apart, and let us be the judge.

Okay. Rather than a new thread, I'll post here.....

The new program focuses on the two most variable areas (other than travel). They are walks and delivery type.

For each residential stop the time study person looks at a satellite map of the delivery point. They look at where stop complete happened. If its not accurate, they move it (for instance if the driver pushed stop complete at the vehicle). This marks the end of the walk to the delivery location. They then mark a point at the middle of the street. The computer measures the amount of feet from the center of the street to the delivery point.

Yes, I know that you don't always walk a direct line to the delivery point. You also don't always walk from the center of the street.

The system remembers these points and more samples can be added by adding more delivery days or stops. Rather than using just a single day that can't be validated, now the data is saved and can easily be audited. It also uses exact distance measured instead of walk classifications that are estimated by an observer.

The process I mentioned is faster to do than the old process and the information is saved. If a new neighborhood is added, only that neighborhood needs to be sampled.

What I mentioned works for residential deliveries. For commercial deliveries, each building type is classified. There are about 5 or 6 classifications and each has a seperate allowance. Again, the information is saved and auditable.

Other items like COD, Signature, etc. are added in based on an allowance for those individual items and that data comes from the DIAD.

As I mentioned, based on the above, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, they are only measuring the area. So, each piece of geography is put into a unit. All the stops in the unit and all the planned time for the unit is added up. They then divide the stops into the planned time to come up with a stop allowance for the unit. The same happens for packages to give a package allowance.

This is a very high level overview of the process.

P-Man

 

[soberups]

I just don't understand why you complain about a system that you refuse to learn about?

P-Man

There is no point in "learning" about a system that (a) is arbitrary (b) is entirely under the control of management (c) is not intended to be fair or realistic in the first place and (d) produces flawed "studies" that will never be corrected no matter how inaccurate they are proven to be.

 

[soberups]

Okay. Rather than a new thread, I'll post here.....

The new program focuses on the two most variable areas (other than travel). They are walks and delivery type.

For each residential stop the time study person looks at a satellite map of the delivery point. They look at where stop complete happened. If its not accurate, they move it (for instance if the driver pushed stop complete at the vehicle). This marks the end of the walk to the delivery location. They then mark a point at the middle of the street. The computer measures the amount of feet from the center of the street to the delivery point.

Yes, I know that you don't always walk a direct line to the delivery point. You also don't always walk from the center of the street.

The system remembers these points and more samples can be added by adding more delivery days or stops. Rather than using just a single day that can't be validated, now the data is saved and can easily be audited. It also uses exact distance measured instead of walk classifications that are estimated by an observer.

The process I mentioned is faster to do than the old process and the information is saved. If a new neighborhood is added, only that neighborhood needs to be sampled.

What I mentioned works for residential deliveries. For commercial deliveries, each building type is classified. There are about 5 or 6 classifications and each has a seperate allowance. Again, the information is saved and auditable.

Other items like COD, Signature, etc. are added in based on an allowance for those individual items and that data comes from the DIAD.

As I mentioned, based on the above, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go, they are only measuring the area. So, each piece of geography is put into a unit. All the stops in the unit and all the planned time for the unit is added up. They then divide the stops into the planned time to come up with a stop allowance for the unit. The same happens for packages to give a package allowance.

This is a very high level overview of the process.

P-Man

So what is the "process" by which a driver who follows the methods and works at a brisk, safe pace can appeal or have corrected a flawed study that continuously shows him to be "over allowed"?

Oh, I forgot. There isnt one.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

I wanted you to post this in a new thread, so people could see it right at the beginning and not have to search for the info. I hope you don't mind if I ask one of the mods to move this post and start another thread. This is way better info than the bits and pieces we've been getting, so thanks. How does this system work WITH EDD. If EDD is messed up, will it throw this system off, as far as allowances? If a route is broken up, say an area is split in half, will it throw this system off? Just curious.

 

[pretzel_man]

There is no point in "learning" about a system that (a) is arbitrary (b) is entirely under the control of management (c) is not intended to be fair or realistic in the first place and (d) produces flawed "studies" that will never be corrected no matter how inaccurate they are proven to be.

So what is the "process" by which a driver who follows the methods and works at a brisk, safe pace can appeal or have corrected a flawed study that continuously shows him to be "over allowed"?

Oh, I forgot. There isnt one.

There is a variance process. I've used it many times myself. When the conditions of an area do not match the standard process, a variance can be approved. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

I should point out one more thing... The allowance is based on using the methods, but ALSO a proper job setup. That means a good load and a good trace. (Not perfect, but good) This means that if you have to sort your load, you are overallowed. If you have to dig for a package loaded poorly, you are overallowed.

I won't debate with you whether its right to not give planned time for this "rework". I had an IE assignment 30 years ago and that debate existed then. Rework does not get planned time and I understand why.

So to your example, if a driver works by the methods, at a brisk pace, had a good load, trace, and Job Setup, but is still overallowed.... This is exactly a case for a variance.

You will ignore this information I gave you. You have an opinion that will be unchanged by any facts you get. Go talk to you rlocal I.E. and see if they will explain more details on the process. There is no pont in arguing about something you refuse to learn about.

P-Man

 

[pretzel_man]

I wanted you to post this in a new thread, so people could see it right at the beginning and not have to search for the info. I hope you don't mind if I ask one of the mods to move this post and start another thread. This is way better info than the bits and pieces we've been getting, so thanks. How does this system work WITH EDD. If EDD is messed up, will it throw this system off, as far as allowances? If a route is broken up, say an area is split in half, will it throw this system off? Just curious.

Sorry, Steve... I misunderstood... Sure I don't mind...

The problem with a poor dispatch as it relates to work measurement is twofold...

First, the work measurement was grouped by units. So if the unit is inappropriately broken up in the dispatch, the area given to a driver may not match the "average" work measurement for the unit. This may or may not be an issue. It would depend on how diverse a unit is. For instance, if a unit has all residential deliveries and they were all similar type houses, it doesn't really matter that a unit was split. However, if a unit had a mix of many different types of deliveries and a dispatch included only one of the types, then the driver is measured on the average, but given only a subset on a given day... This last case can be fixed by changing units to include only similar types of deliveries.

The bigger issue with a poorly split route is the trace. If the poor split means your car is not loaded stop per stop, you will spend more time in select, right? This additional time is all overallowed. BTW, select is the single biggest overallowed item.

P-Man

 

[soberups]

There is a variance process. I've used it many times myself. When the conditions of an area do not match the standard process, a variance can be approved. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

I should point out one more thing... The allowance is based on using the methods, but ALSO a proper job setup. That means a good load and a good trace. (Not perfect, but good) This means that if you have to sort your load, you are overallowed. If you have to dig for a package loaded poorly, you are overallowed.

I won't debate with you whether its right to not give planned time for this "rework". I had an IE assignment 30 years ago and that debate existed then. Rework does not get planned time and I understand why.

So to your example, if a driver works by the methods, at a brisk pace, had a good load, trace, and Job Setup, but is still overallowed.... This is exactly a case for a variance.

You will ignore this information I gave you. You have an opinion that will be unchanged by any facts you get. Go talk to you rlocal I.E. and see if they will explain more details on the process. There is no pont in arguing about something you refuse to learn about.

P-Man

In the 23 years I have been a driver, I have never seen one of these "variances" you speak of.

They are like vaporware, or fairy dust. They exist in theory, but in the real world they will never happen. In the real world, the driver will simply be overdispatched and pressured into working off of the clock in order to meet the flawed "standard". The standard itself will not be corrected.

Any measurement system with no viable mechanism for the correction of errors is, by definition, unfair and arbitrary.

 

[timebonustodd]

go 1 better...... when that 4th and 5th hour come up take a full hour lunch on the latter of it ...................its amazing what it does to your miles when you break off to make a committment that closes at 330pm then go back on trace after then i say sorry im only as good as the failed driver that trained me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!