Old Man Jingles
Rat out of a cage
If I might interject ... The truth is obviously somewhere between you two.
Pelosi
- Thread starter moreluck
- Start date
BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
I look forward to the books that will be written, in hindsight, about both Presidencies.
Fascinating books are still being written about the JFK/Nixon/Lincoln years.
Books are being written as we speak about the Obama years, and even the Trump years.
Too soon...
I want a decade or two or three of hindsight for a real deep-dive on a Presidency.
Fascinating books are still being written about the JFK/Nixon/Lincoln years.
Books are being written as we speak about the Obama years, and even the Trump years.
Too soon...
I want a decade or two or three of hindsight for a real deep-dive on a Presidency.
Stock market gains during Obama's tenure were in spite of him, not because of him. And they were good for the richest in the country, not for the average guy. Trump won because voters believed Hillary would continue Obama's policies, not help them.
Old Man Jingles
Rat out of a cage
I agree because I believe that is a reasonable conclusion on the events of the last ten years.
At the same time, I realize it is most likely that you engaged in a mix of two types of logic fallacies - Causal Assumption mixed with a False Dichotomy. Even though I use these causal relationships myself ... there is no way you can verify or replicate.
I do think that Hillary not getting elected assuaged some real business fears and Trump was perceived as a positive force to promote business in the USA.
Oversimplification of the number of inputs needed to achieve the Trump affect on markets and businesses is a high risk by your limiting it to 1 alternative being the causal factor. There were many.
But I also look at the fact that he's actually doing something that does make it easier for business to thrive. Obama didn't. There are certainly other reasons for Hillary losing but bottom line is people vote with their pocketbook.
As for all the folks on here who like to tout the stock market performance during the Obama years they never seem to see the obvious. The real estate market crashed and took the stock market with it. There was nowhere to go but up for the stock market. It was being pumped with billions of 401k money every week while there were millions of foreclosures, and upside down mortgages, weighing the real estate market down. So up and up it went. Didn't provide incentives for investment and job creation. And Obama's administration seemed determined to put a stranglehold on business. The stock market doing well doesn't mean much if you don't have solid GDP growth which shows businesses are expanding and creating jobs. So great if you own a lot of stock, but most people don't and their pay and options to get a better job were limited. Really easy to show that upward line on the chart and say Obama was great and Republicans are all liars. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
Liars, damn liars, and statisticians.
Sportello
Well-Known Member
bottomups
Bad Moon Risen'
Thanks to the French.
cachmeifucan
Well-Known Member
Divine intervention. Nanny Pelosi might be the best thing for trump in 2020.
oldngray
nowhere special
refineryworker05
Well-Known Member
What I have come to understand from trump's presidency is that there really aren't very many policy debates amongst American voters. Not really.
Like I have asked republicans why they don't like Pelosi and they don't actually have a policy reason. She passed health care that millions of people use, she passed a Consumer protection Agency that's returned billions of dollars to Americans, she passed a banking regulation bill after banks destroyed the economy and a stimulus package to save the economy.
No one actually disagrees with those things. A minimum wage, worker's rights, social security, medicare, Medicaid, environmental protections, etc none of that stuff is actually in dispute amongst most voters.
The fight in American politics is a question of who gets to influence American government and who gets helped by the government.
Sadly, republicans really and truly believe that black Americans, Latino Americans and Muslim Americans are a threat to the nation, and they don't want the government to help those citizens. They believe that helping those citizens will be bad for the nation in various ways.
And really and truly that's what the divide in politics is about. republican voters perceive that the Democratic party is enabling these groups of Americans that they believe are bad for America and they don't want those Americans influencing the government to help them.
Now instead of having that discussion, we get a lot of phony stuff about de regulation or small government or tax cuts or abortion or etc, stuff that republican voters don't actually care about which makes it impossible to address the actual thing in dispute in American politics.
Like I have asked republicans why they don't like Pelosi and they don't actually have a policy reason. She passed health care that millions of people use, she passed a Consumer protection Agency that's returned billions of dollars to Americans, she passed a banking regulation bill after banks destroyed the economy and a stimulus package to save the economy.
No one actually disagrees with those things. A minimum wage, worker's rights, social security, medicare, Medicaid, environmental protections, etc none of that stuff is actually in dispute amongst most voters.
The fight in American politics is a question of who gets to influence American government and who gets helped by the government.
Sadly, republicans really and truly believe that black Americans, Latino Americans and Muslim Americans are a threat to the nation, and they don't want the government to help those citizens. They believe that helping those citizens will be bad for the nation in various ways.
And really and truly that's what the divide in politics is about. republican voters perceive that the Democratic party is enabling these groups of Americans that they believe are bad for America and they don't want those Americans influencing the government to help them.
Now instead of having that discussion, we get a lot of phony stuff about de regulation or small government or tax cuts or abortion or etc, stuff that republican voters don't actually care about which makes it impossible to address the actual thing in dispute in American politics.
The more you tell us what we really believe the more in Left field you look. You're not about finding ways to solve real problems. You're about silencing anyone who disagrees with your point of view. The best way to help any group is to make sure they have access to jobs that'll improve their circumstances. It's not handouts.
refineryworker05
Well-Known Member
Silencing? Huh. Sadly, I have found that republicans don't care about their stated beliefs.
Again, trump doesn't embody or carry out any stated republican beliefs on trade, protecting allies, not attacking law enforcement, morality, not increasing the deficit, being religious, etc and yet republican voters love him.
In fact, trump attacked the Iraq War, promised to give everyone health insurance, promised to raise taxes on the rich, promised to protect Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid all things republican are supposed to be against or want to cut and yet republican voters love him.
He insulted the whole premise of the War in Iraq, which was the great republican cause for over a decade and republican voters love him.
Again the track record is clear. Republican voters don't care about policy, they value trump's racism.
Somehow you pulled racism out of all of that? Sounds to me you don't understand what Republicans are for.
refineryworker05
Well-Known Member
No, I think I fully understand what republican voters value.
I think republican voters support big government since they most popular programs with republican voters are the largest federal government programs. I think republican voters support a minimum wage, worker protections and rights, I think republican voters even want good affordable health care. I don't think republican voters care about free trade or tax cuts for the rich or de regulation, or these long never ending wars in the middle east, etc.
Again, the divide in American governance for the most part is not about policy. Since there is broad general agreement amongst voters on those issues.
Republican voters don't want black Americans, Latino Americans, and Muslim Americans influencing the government to help them.
Republican voters see those groups, and their interests as a threat to America.
And they see the Democratic party as aiding those groups.
And the republican party as the way to stop those groups.
That's the divide in American politics.
oldngray
nowhere special
Pelosi being speaker is a gift to the Republicans.
moreluck
golden ticket member
everyone over 68 in congress should be in the Laz'y'Boy !!!!!!!
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