retirement crisis in america

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Wow,
You have been "looking into" this since almost 4yrs ago.
I have lived and worked in this Great nation for almost 55yrs.
America is the same great country to work in, as it was way back then.
30yrs ago I was barely getting by and living in a 52ft mobile home.
Now, I am a debt free millionaire.
How the Hell did we do it, in this evil corporate run USA?
My wife worked a job running a General Store in the country, while having a Stained Glass business.
I worked at UPS and on my "off" hours I had an artist blacksmith business.
Every morning my wife packed me a lunchbox because she knew I had no where to buy food during the day, plus it saved us money.
I am sick and tired of punks who do not realize that they have everything at their feet and are too damn lazy to pick them up.
knowing how to invest and knowing whats in workers best interests are 2 separate things.

where do you get your news from?

congrats on your success with small businesses and your steady marriage. more capitalist small businesses fail than worker cooperative small business (because the workers are actually interested in making their businesses work well rather than in capitalism just being paid an hourly wage to do a job which they dont really care about) , but both are difficult.

i think america really shifted in the 1970s when it went from an empire of production to an empire of consumption. plus the real wage stopped rising after 150 years of workers being able to buy more and more each year. when reagan took office you had the full blown corporate offensive in response to the social unrest of the 1960s and 70s; and government stopping planning for the common man's future.

if you think the american economy hasnt changed, then take a look at detroit, baltimore, camden NJ. these cities are totally deindustrialized. alot of whats grown is wall street and speculation.
look at the loss of civil liberties. surely you didnt miss the snowden story where it was revealled that americans are the most spied on population in the world worse than east germany.
it has the worst inequality now. crumbling infrastructure. a loss of trust in government.

these are long term trends and it points to a systemic problem in the capitalist economy. i think social unrest will be coming back to america in one way or another and i hope its not fascism. the corporate totalitarianism is bad enough.
 

smapple

Well-Known Member
wealth of nations is misread and skewed but a classic when understood properly. i think sowell is a schister, cant remember all what it was, i do recall him in one video bashing occupy and then in another praising the tea party movement for the exact same reasons. i think if u look at alot of what sowell says it doesnt correspond to reality: hes probably bought off. nobody i listen to references him...

i am mostly left wing and listen to mostly left wing people but i do listen and agree with some conservatives like ron pauls forgien policy and his stance on civil liberties, gerald celente, paul craig roberts, most of what max keiser says etc. alot of the left wing guys are very conservative when it comes to different issues and i agree.

What was the reason he bashed the OC movement but praised the TP for? I think you'll have to be more specific on the things Sowell said that doesn't correspond to reality. Ron Paul isn't a conservative, he's libertarian. I stopped listening to Keiser when he got his prediction about financial collapse wrong.
 

satellitedriver

Moderator
You are living a dream
You'd have been making 10.00 an
Hour and wouldn't have had the chance to secure you future
Yes,
I have been living the dream life of a working man, and it damn well paid off.
The last time I worked for $10.00 an hour was in 1979.
You do not have a clue.
When I was swinging a sledge hammer in a coal mine, you were either not born, or still making mustard in your diaper.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
From every source you have access to.
When I was in school in the 1950's, 60's ,and the 70's, my teachers taught me to think, not just read, memorize and regurgitate.

right....any people or publications in particular???

i dont think the young generation is to blame aside from the fact they spend too much time in virtual reality and not enough time organizing in politics. the young generation didnt collapse the economy last 5 years, they didnt outsource jobs, they didnt decrease funding to college education, and they didnt spend over half the federal budget on military empire: corporations and government did all that.
 

satellitedriver

Moderator
right....any people or publications in particular???

i dont think the young generation is to blame aside from the fact they spend too much time in virtual reality and not enough time organizing in politics. the young generation didnt collapse the economy last 5 years, they didnt outsource jobs, they didnt decrease funding to college education, and they didnt spend over half the federal budget on military empire: corporations and government did all that.
First off,
I am not a financial adviser.
Secondly,
I do not subscribe to any financial publications.
In the past, I use to waste my money reading
what the financial experts had to say, for a monthly fee.
Thirdly,
the economy did not collapse in the last five years. My own investments have grown in the last 7yrs because I learned to go back to the basics and investigate each company I invested in.
Fourthly,
politics/ government is the problem, not the solution.
Fifthly,
my 4 brothers and my sister, plus myself, paid for our own college education, by working full time jobs and going to college.
Hell, one of my brothers is a poster child of the American work ethic and achieving the American dream. 19yrs old, married with a baby girl. He got up at 4AM to throw a 400 house paper route, then go to work 40hrs a week at an engineering firm, then go to night school at the University of Houston to get his engineering degree. He retired a millionaire. His son is a multimillionaire as an officer for Micro Soft Retail, and his daughter is an ICU RN Nurse with an alphabet behind her RN Degree, and yes, those kids worked there way through college.
Sixthly,
we do not spend enough on our military, less should be spent on people that expect a hand out instead of a hand up.
Seventhly, (I know that is not a word)
Unionism is what drove industrialism out of America.


But what the heck, just blame everyone for your misfortune and expect them to make it right.


 

upschuck

Well-Known Member
Unionism is what drove industrialism out of America.
I would agree, only if the corporations that sent these jobs away were barely making it. What sent them away was/is the greedy CEOs and officials that wanted even more money than they already were making. I have no problem with people making all the money in the world, but do have a problem if they step on people, stab in the back, try and pay them less, while they are making more, and companies getting record profits.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
First off,
I am not a financial adviser.
Secondly,
I do not subscribe to any financial publications.
In the past, I use to waste my money reading
what the financial experts had to say, for a monthly fee.
Thirdly,
the economy did not collapse in the last five years. My own investments have grown in the last 7yrs because I learned to go back to the basics and investigate each company I invested in.
Fourthly,
politics/ government is the problem, not the solution.
Fifthly,
my 4 brothers and my sister, plus myself, paid for our own college education, by working full time jobs and going to college.
Hell, one of my brothers is a poster child of the American work ethic and achieving the American dream. 19yrs old, married with a baby girl. He got up at 4AM to throw a 400 house paper route, then go to work 40hrs a week at an engineering firm, then go to night school at the University of Houston to get his engineering degree. He retired a millionaire. His son is a multimillionaire as an officer for Micro Soft Retail, and his daughter is an ICU RN Nurse with an alphabet behind her RN Degree, and yes, those kids worked there way through college.
Sixthly,
we do not spend enough on our military, less should be spent on people that expect a hand out instead of a hand up.
Seventhly, (I know that is not a word)
Unionism is what drove industrialism out of America.


But what the heck, just blame everyone for your misfortune and expect them to make it right.


"politics/ government is the problem, not the solution" this is straight political rhetoric.

ironically u were able to afford your own college education back then because government funding for college was higher back then. the government spends less money funding colleges and it is therefore more expensive for each individual because:
A. public education is undergoing a corporate privatization
B. debt peonage is a means of social control

america spends over 1.5 trillion on its "defense" aka military empire each year. 9/11 was what the CIA refers to as "blow back" from america invading other countries. america should be following ron paul's advice and getting out of other countries.

unlimited pollution with no regulations, and $0.50/hr wages with 90 hour work weeks with no worker protection is what drove good paying jobs out of america. if your argument about unions were true then america would be doing good right now considering unionization rate is less than 7% right now compared to 33% during the great depression.

but anyways.....americans should have comfortable retirements and they should be doing economically better than ever but theyre not basically because of capitalism.
 

smapple

Well-Known Member
"politics/ government is the problem, not the solution" this is straight political rhetoric.

ironically u were able to afford your own college education back then because government funding for college was higher back then. the government spends less money funding colleges and it is therefore more expensive for each individual because:
A. public education is undergoing a corporate privatization
B. debt peonage is a means of social control

america spends over 1.5 trillion on its "defense" aka military empire each year. 9/11 was what the CIA refers to as "blow back" from america invading other countries. america should be following ron paul's advice and getting out of other countries.

unlimited pollution with no regulations, and $0.50/hr wages with 90 hour work weeks with no worker protection is what drove good paying jobs out of america. if your argument about unions were true then america would be doing good right now considering unionization rate is less than 7% right now compared to 33% during the great depression.

but anyways.....americans should have comfortable retirements and they should be doing economically better than ever but theyre not basically because of capitalism.

Again, so much wrong here.
 

smapple

Well-Known Member
enlighten me...

College tuition became more expensive mostly due to inflation and government subsidy of student loans; colleges aren't nonprofit organizations, they're greedy for money too and they'll increase the price of tuition to students as long as they can pay by whatever means available including massive loans. The "corporate privatization" of public schools is only happening as a reaction to public education's unrelenting push to under achieve. If the DoE would get its act together there would be no need to privatize K-12.

Total US military budget for fiscal year 2015 is to be ~$760 billion. The US is in other countries because other countries like Russia, China, and Israel are in those other countries. 9/11 wasn't about blowback, it was about Iran leading US intel by the nose to open the gates for the slaughter of Sunni muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Good jobs left the US when it became cheaper/the smart move to outsource and invest overseas and the life goal of many citizens became just to ride the gravy train into retirement without thinking in terms of increased productivity. Unions played a part in making hiring within the US so expensive. I'm not saying get rid of unions and I can appreciate why they're needed, but the heads of organizations like the AFL-CIO and SEIU seem to be more interested in padding their own wallets and consolidating political power.

US is not capitalist, it's mercantile/corporatism/crony capitalism.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
College tuition became more expensive mostly due to inflation and government subsidy of student loans; colleges aren't nonprofit organizations, they're greedy for money too and they'll increase the price of tuition to students as long as they can pay by whatever means available including massive loans. The "corporate privatization" of public schools is only happening as a reaction to public education's unrelenting push to under achieve. If the DoE would get its act together there would be no need to privatize K-12.

Total US military budget for fiscal year 2015 is to be ~$760 billion. The US is in other countries because other countries like Russia, China, and Israel are in those other countries. 9/11 wasn't about blowback, it was about Iran leading US intel by the nose to open the gates for the slaughter of Sunni muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Good jobs left the US when it became cheaper/the smart move to outsource and invest overseas and the life goal of many citizens became just to ride the gravy train into retirement without thinking in terms of increased productivity. Unions played a part in making hiring within the US so expensive. I'm not saying get rid of unions and I can appreciate why they're needed, but the heads of organizations like the AFL-CIO and SEIU seem to be more interested in padding their own wallets and consolidating political power.

US is not capitalist, it's mercantile/corporatism/crony capitalism.

pardon me maybe i was wrong about the defense spending. but yes its 50% of the federal budge is on military empire / defense. i cant remember if the 650 billion number included classified spending or not.

yea i agree unions drove the real wage up; they did their job in that respect. driving the real wage up is a good thing. productivity has increased alot since the 1970s which is when the real wage stopped rising, so its been easier every year for corporations to hire. i agree unions are far from perfect and are in bed with the corporations and the leaders make way too much money. i dont think many american citizens were riding a "gravy train" coming to work every day working until retirement. honest work under capitalism is not easy, especially when alot of the value u produce goes to making a capitalist rich.


i agree its capitalist with heavy state intervention. chomsky (who is an anarchist and thinks the state should be abolished) says that if the state wasnt involved, capitalism would collapse. i agree i think its an unstable system which devolves into facism which is what u have a mild version of in america now anyways


corporate privatization of schools is happening for the same reasons corporations want to privatize any other public asset: because theres alot of money to be made. the pubic education system in the states is not that great. on top of that the corporate schools could push their own agenda of capitalism, markets, and other illusions which will only last 50 - 100 years tops before the environmental catastrophe forces systemic change. corporations could give 2 :censored2:s whether public education is working or not. the USPS works very well, but its also being privatized. college education did not become more expensive because of inflation. america currently has the most expensive public college in the developed world. government used to pay 80% of the costs of college , now they only pay 50% and the individual makes up the difference. mexico has free college. so does brazil. so does germany, and many EU countries. tuition was very affordable in america up until the 1980s.

http://stevedenning.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834256bce53ef013487706fe2970c-pi

from the BLS adj for inflation...

9/11 happened because the US government is debatably the #1 terror state in the world. so over 100 years of terrorism on the US government's part and the chickens came home to roost. thats basically it, 9/11 has more specific reasons but that sums it up.
 

smapple

Well-Known Member
pardon me maybe i was wrong about the defense spending. but yes its 50% of the federal budge is on military empire / defense. i cant remember if the 650 billion number included classified spending or not.

yea i agree unions drove the real wage up; they did their job in that respect. driving the real wage up is a good thing. productivity has increased alot since the 1970s which is when the real wage stopped rising, so its been easier every year for corporations to hire. i agree unions are far from perfect and are in bed with the corporations and the leaders make way too much money. i dont think many american citizens were riding a "gravy train" coming to work every day working until retirement. honest work under capitalism is not easy, especially when alot of the value u produce goes to making a capitalist rich.


i agree its capitalist with heavy state intervention. chomsky (who is an anarchist and thinks the state should be abolished) says that if the state wasnt involved, capitalism would collapse. i agree i think its an unstable system which devolves into facism which is what u have a mild version of in america now anyways


corporate privatization of schools is happening for the same reasons corporations want to privatize any other public asset: because theres alot of money to be made. the pubic education system in the states is not that great. on top of that the corporate schools could push their own agenda of capitalism, markets, and other illusions which will only last 50 - 100 years tops before the environmental catastrophe forces systemic change. corporations could give 2 :censored2:s whether public education is working or not. the USPS works very well, but its also being privatized. college education did not become more expensive because of inflation. america currently has the most expensive public college in the developed world. government used to pay 80% of the costs of college , now they only pay 50% and the individual makes up the difference. mexico has free college. so does brazil. so does germany, and many EU countries. tuition was very affordable in america up until the 1980s.

http://stevedenning.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834256bce53ef013487706fe2970c-pi

from the BLS adj for inflation...

9/11 happened because the US government is debatably the #1 terror state in the world. so over 100 years of terrorism on the US government's part and the chickens came home to roost. thats basically it, 9/11 has more specific reasons but that sums it up.

Total federal revenue for 2014 was $3.02 trillion and for 2015 it's expected to be ~$3.34. I'm not sure how you're getting that 50% figure.

I'm not saying Americans are riding the gravy train (since there no such thing), I'm saying that's what many want and by wanting that a lot of us lost sight of how to grow prosperity. Example, every job I've worked I saw about 7/10 people just there to run out the clock and get as little work done with as little effort as possible with the remaining 3 working their butt off to pick up the slack.

If you don't understand the conflict that the Sunni and Shia muslims have been having for centuries and how they've use the standing armies of other countries to attack the other in the past then you're not going to understand why 9/11 happened. It's not blow back, it's Persians doing what we do, what Russia does, what China does, and what Israel does, which is try to use other countries to attack their enemies.

Chomsky is a great linguist, but kind of shallow in the political department. A key factor of ownership is the ability to prevent others from using the thing that is owned. I disagree that without a state that capitalism would collapse since capitalism by definition is simply an individual having ownership of things and the futures gains from those things rather than the state. Without the state individuals would still own stuff and they would attempt with force to prevent others from exercising ownership over it. The US is going towards fascism because, like most institutions, government employees (President, Congress, courts, etc.) value the perpetuation of the institution known as government more than they value the individuals that are governed.

Minimum wage shouldn't only rise with productivity, you also have to calculate inflation (over 2280% cumulative since 1913) from devaluation of the currency which factors into a lot of current prices and test it against market forces that determine what price people would be willing to pay for said goods and services; you can't pay someone $50 to make a $20 products and sell it for $100 if people only have $30 to spend. Similarly, you can't charge $10,000+ for tuition if people only have $7,000 for discretionary income. Colleges in other countries are not free, they're paid through taxes. US colleges would lower their tuition if it seemed like enrollment would be so abysmally down that they'd have to cut down on building projects, research, and staff, but they know most high school graduates can get a loan both federally and from private institutions so they hike up the price to what the prospective student can afford to pay back based on projected income of a graduate from their college. Again, colleges aren't nonprofit.

Corporations don't control public education, the Department of Education does both on the federal and state level. They could stop all this nonsense if they wanted, but won't because they have something to gain, most likely a lobbying gig down the line (say it with me, corporatocracy not capitalism) while wringing their hands about homeschooling.

USPS doesn't work well, it would've been shutdown long ago if it weren't illegal to setup a rival postal service for letters. The beauty of FedEx, UPS, and other package deliverers is that they took over and expanded a niche market for package delivery, something that USPS should have done but didn't because it got complacent and instead griped about how email was making them lose volume.

I could go on a lot more but this already took about ~45 minutes of my time. If you're gonna be an autodidact I advise looking at source material instead of going off of what other's with agendas say.
 

rickyb

Well-Known Member
Total federal revenue for 2014 was $3.02 trillion and for 2015 it's expected to be ~$3.34. I'm not sure how you're getting that 50% figure.

I'm not saying Americans are riding the gravy train (since there no such thing), I'm saying that's what many want and by wanting that a lot of us lost sight of how to grow prosperity. Example, every job I've worked I saw about 7/10 people just there to run out the clock and get as little work done with as little effort as possible with the remaining 3 working their butt off to pick up the slack.

If you don't understand the conflict that the Sunni and Shia muslims have been having for centuries and how they've use the standing armies of other countries to attack the other in the past then you're not going to understand why 9/11 happened. It's not blow back, it's Persians doing what we do, what Russia does, what China does, and what Israel does, which is try to use other countries to attack their enemies.

Chomsky is a great linguist, but kind of shallow in the political department. A key factor of ownership is the ability to prevent others from using the thing that is owned. I disagree that without a state that capitalism would collapse since capitalism by definition is simply an individual having ownership of things and the futures gains from those things rather than the state. Without the state individuals would still own stuff and they would attempt with force to prevent others from exercising ownership over it. The US is going towards fascism because, like most institutions, government employees (President, Congress, courts, etc.) value the perpetuation of the institution known as government more than they value the individuals that are governed.

Minimum wage shouldn't only rise with productivity, you also have to calculate inflation (over 2280% cumulative since 1913) from devaluation of the currency which factors into a lot of current prices and test it against market forces that determine what price people would be willing to pay for said goods and services; you can't pay someone $50 to make a $20 products and sell it for $100 if people only have $30 to spend. Similarly, you can't charge $10,000+ for tuition if people only have $7,000 for discretionary income. Colleges in other countries are not free, they're paid through taxes. US colleges would lower their tuition if it seemed like enrollment would be so abysmally down that they'd have to cut down on building projects, research, and staff, but they know most high school graduates can get a loan both federally and from private institutions so they hike up the price to what the prospective student can afford to pay back based on projected income of a graduate from their college. Again, colleges aren't nonprofit.

Corporations don't control public education, the Department of Education does both on the federal and state level. They could stop all this nonsense if they wanted, but won't because they have something to gain, most likely a lobbying gig down the line (say it with me, corporatocracy not capitalism) while wringing their hands about homeschooling.

USPS doesn't work well, it would've been shutdown long ago if it weren't illegal to setup a rival postal service for letters. The beauty of FedEx, UPS, and other package deliverers is that they took over and expanded a niche market for package delivery, something that USPS should have done but didn't because it got complacent and instead griped about how email was making them lose volume.

I could go on a lot more but this already took about ~45 minutes of my time. If you're gonna be an autodidact I advise looking at source material instead of going off of what other's with agendas say.


regarding the military i was sure it was 1.52 trillion what i saw, could be wrong, but they get that number by including classified spending which is not included in the 600 billion number.

i think part of the reason workers dont work harder is because theres no incentive under captialism. quite often they just do as little as they have to keep their job. if they work harder, there no correlation in pay. thats why i am in favor of worker cooperatives and workers voting on how to run their own businesses instead of capitalism.

yea if the minimum wage rose with inflation it would be at 10.80 or so now, which is what its peak was in 1968.

federal loans may have something to do with it, but i listen to a lot of guys and they never say anything like that. if your poor and u dont pay any taxes, then they are free for that person. or if u pay very little taxes, and get alot more value in education than what u pay, then its a good deal. hopefully the person who pays for it is the people who are most able to pay for it which are the rich.

i think free markets are quite unresponsive and full of misinformation like ridiculous advertisements. its certainly not based on facts.

chomsky is up there with socrates in terms of how much he is quoted for his poltiics and linguistics. i find it troubling you mentioned thomas sowell earlier. you'd have corporate tyranny with no government. the reason government is hated in part by corporations is because it can be democratized. but i agree after we get rid of the hiearchical corporations then we can get rid of and minimize the government to a local level. corporations are massive private economic tyrannies. markets arent always that great, and with markets is supposed to be free movement of labor which u do not have currently. so for example many companies pay minimum wage only because the government forces them to, if there was no minimum wage, quite often they would be paying less (and possibly hiring more). another example of markets is there is no vacation law in america; it is left to the market. so americans typically take 2-3 weeks vacation a year. whereas in europe, the law states that the worker must get 4,5,6 weeks paid vacation. some things sowell says is honest, but hes full of lies. ron paul is much more honest, and even more so is paul craig roberts. gerald celente is honest. 9/11 happened because of america's forgien policy of supporting dictators, crushing democracy, mass murder, and controlling resources. this has been going strong since wwII but america has been meddling in other countries for hundreds of years.

USPS does work, the government even borrowed money from it. In addition the government doesnt fund it. And its cheaper than Fedex and UPS. But those corporations have the government impose all kinds of restrictions on deliveries and whatever else on it and it is being privatized. they promote free markets, but they like government as long as it makes them money.

http://ralphnaderradiohour.libsyn.com/mark-dimondstein-drones-credit-cards

"it is futile to be ‘anti-Fascist’ while attempting to preserve capitalism. Fascism after all is only a development of capitalism, and the mildest democracy, so-called, is liable to turn into Fascism" - orwell

yea of course corporations dont formally control education or government , but they increasingly do informally and people are catching on.

anyways i think your 2 cents was much better than 90% of all the other nonsense on brownscafe. u cant have serious conversatoins with most of the guys here.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
"politics/ government is the problem, not the solution" this is straight political rhetoric.

ironically u were able to afford your own college education back then because government funding for college was higher back then. the government spends less money funding colleges and it is therefore more expensive for each individual because:
A. public education is undergoing a corporate privatization
B. debt peonage is a means of social control

america spends over 1.5 trillion on its "defense" aka military empire each year. 9/11 was what the CIA refers to as "blow back" from america invading other countries. america should be following ron paul's advice and getting out of other countries.

unlimited pollution with no regulations, and $0.50/hr wages with 90 hour work weeks with no worker protection is what drove good paying jobs out of america. if your argument about unions were true then america would be doing good right now considering unionization rate is less than 7% right now compared to 33% during the great depression.

but anyways.....americans should have comfortable retirements and they should be doing economically better than ever but theyre not basically because of capitalism.
So I should have 4 wheelbarrows of money instead of 3 ???
Troll!!!
 
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