The Plan

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Let's see. Until Reagan and his followers began busting-up the unions and gutting the middle class, medical benefits were common and expected. "We're better than that" is garbage, and you know it. You let the rest of us pay defacto benefits for your employees who cannot afford them. When one of your drivers has to go to the ER because they don't have benefits, people like me pickup the tab. Instead of having a $100 doctor bill, we all get to chip-in for the $1000 bill from the ER.

As I've said before, Ground gets a free taxpayer subsidy because they pay crap wages and have no benefits for most employees. We makeup the difference so you can go car shopping and new vehicle shopping with your extra income. You build your business (and so does Fred) at taxpayer expense.

See Mr 7? That's why I have to repeat myself.

You and I simply have a difference of opinion. We both believe health insurance is a right. I just think it's long past time for the government to pick up the tab for all. I know that after WWII companies used such benefits to attract the better workers. Well, that's 65 years ago and that model is unsustainable. Fedex is ahead of the curve on this and you are trying to map it back to 1976.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
You and I simply have a difference of opinion. We both believe health insurance is a right. I just think it's long past time for the government to pick up the tab for all. I know that after WWII companies used such benefits to attract the better workers. Well, that's 65 years ago and that model is unsustainable. Fedex is ahead of the curve on this and you are trying to map it back to 1976.

FedEx is ahead of the curve? By not paying any benefits to drivers? Carter was President in 1976, and I don't think he'd appreciate government subsidies to private companies either.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
FedEx is ahead of the curve? By not paying any benefits to drivers? Carter was President in 1976, and I don't think he'd appreciate government subsidies to private companies either.

So think there will be a resurgence of union membership? A return to protectionism? More and more companies offering health and other benefits? Where do you get that idea. Companies have been looking for ways to drop those bennies and in many cases have had to because of cost. Now, the more companies that drop insurance the more costs increase for the remaining and the cycle continues? So ahead of the curve simply means that this is the direction of the trend. I don't see the trend reversing any time soon. So yes, 1976 was about the apex of union power in the business sector. It's a long, long way from now and getting farther away every day.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
FedEx is ahead of the curve? By not paying any benefits to drivers? Carter was President in 1976, and I don't think he'd appreciate government subsidies to private companies either.

Er, Gerald Ford was prez in '76. Carter got sworn in Jan. '77. And he was most responsible for Reagan getting sworn in Jan.'81. Just a little clarity. And unions were just as culpable as management for the state of affairs today. I doubt when union organizers were sticking their necks out in the early 1900's to get decent pay and benefits that they had any idea just how far the unions would overreach. And BBSam, don't kid yourself. The biggest reason we have benefits today is companies trying to keep unions out. But it's becoming painfully obvious that young people today aren't going to have the same options once taken for granted. It's why anyone raging against the machine might as well be spitting into the wind. Other than irritating them we are totally toothless. In order to be competitive in a world market we'll have to settle for less. Or get into a line of work that pays better. And even that might not last for long because how are you going to be paid better if most others are making less? Even doctors are facing a less lucrative future. Not to mention we're facing increased taxes to pay for both debt and entitlements. And the irony of it all is due to environmental extremism we don't have enough oil drilling or refining capacity. If oil gets cut-off from the Suez canal it'll go through the roof and FedEx, and the country, will be in real trouble. And we dwell on our own problems.
 

Brown287

Im not the Mail Man!
Hey SCAM if your reason of why things are never going to change is because things have been changing, do you not see the lunacy in your statement. No body on here is going to argue with you on the declining numbers of the uninsured and the various reasons why, but do you not understand the concept of a "pendulum"? Everything is cyclical and yes this includes the workplace. Heres a quick history lesson, before unions and work place rights employees were adversely abused and misused. There was ramped abuses and under compensation for a days work, and guess what SCAM things changed. Crazy concept isn't it buddy.

So yes your SCAM exists and workers are being thrown to the wolves, but if you think that this can and will not ever change you are sorely mistaken. My advice to you is to take your arrogance and put it to wards something usefully, like hostage negotiator or maybe a technician of a bomb squad. These professions would greatly benefit from your apparent perfectness.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
So think there will be a resurgence of union membership? A return to protectionism? More and more companies offering health and other benefits? Where do you get that idea. Companies have been looking for ways to drop those bennies and in many cases have had to because of cost. Now, the more companies that drop insurance the more costs increase for the remaining and the cycle continues? So ahead of the curve simply means that this is the direction of the trend. I don't see the trend reversing any time soon. So yes, 1976 was about the apex of union power in the business sector. It's a long, long way from now and getting farther away every day.

Maybe workers won't be content to accept crap benefits or lousy wages in an improving economy. Just where do you think the purchasing power to buy goods and services will come from if most workers make $600 per week with no benefits? Are your drivers buying new homes or cars? No, they aren't. Are they shopping at WalMart buying artificially cheap goods from China and other countries where many US jobs have been off-shored or outsourced? Yes, they are.

You will do just fine, which is probably all you care about anyway. Sure, health costs are rising, but many companies see elimination of benefits as a simple way to raise profits. They shove those costs onto the larger society and the government, just the way FedEx Ground does.

Sorry, but that's not just unethical, it's indefensible.
 

FedExer267

Well-Known Member
Maybe workers won't be content to accept crap benefits or lousy wages in an improving economy. Just where do you think the purchasing power to buy goods and services will come from if most workers make $600 per week with no benefits? Are your drivers buying new homes or cars? No, they aren't. Are they shopping at WalMart buying artificially cheap goods from China and other countries where many US jobs have been off-shored or outsourced? Yes, they are.

You will do just fine, which is probably all you care about anyway. Sure, health costs are rising, but many companies see elimination of benefits as a simple way to raise profits. They shove those costs onto the larger society and the government, just the way FedEx Ground does.

Sorry, but that's not just unethical, it's indefensible.

Man I cant even afford to go shopping at walmart, The question is if pay gets lower and we wont make much over 600 a week how could we even pay for our own benefits. Now if we had a decent living wage we may be able to pay for these things but it comes painfully obvious that the average Contractor will never provide that for his employees because it takes from his pot. So until the day comes where Ground drivers get a decent wage we will have to continue to mooch off of taxpayers. Like I said before thats said when we work full time its not from are lack of being lazy. Its a billion dollar companies scam to get out of doing whats right. I betcha because Fred is so rich he isnt paying the taxes that you pay bbsam so in other words he is screwing you on that cost too.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Er, Gerald Ford was prez in '76. Carter got sworn in Jan. '77. And he was most responsible for Reagan getting sworn in Jan.'81. Just a little clarity. And unions were just as culpable as management for the state of affairs today. I doubt when union organizers were sticking their necks out in the early 1900's to get decent pay and benefits that they had any idea just how far the unions would overreach. And BBSam, don't kid yourself. The biggest reason we have benefits today is companies trying to keep unions out. But it's becoming painfully obvious that young people today aren't going to have the same options once taken for granted. It's why anyone raging against the machine might as well be spitting into the wind. Other than irritating them we are totally toothless. In order to be competitive in a world market we'll have to settle for less. Or get into a line of work that pays better. And even that might not last for long because how are you going to be paid better if most others are making less? Even doctors are facing a less lucrative future. Not to mention we're facing increased taxes to pay for both debt and entitlements. And the irony of it all is due to environmental extremism we don't have enough oil drilling or refining capacity. If oil gets cut-off from the Suez canal it'll go through the roof and FedEx, and the country, will be in real trouble. And we dwell on our own problems.

The unions have overreached in only a few cases, and they definitely aren't doing so now. I agree with Brown 287 about the cyclical nature of labor vs. management, and I do think the pendulum is swinging away from Big Business. The fractured Republican/Tea Party is so owned by business, yet utterly incapable of doing anything but saying "NO". It's ironic that the companies and individuals who have made billions outsourcing jobs will eventually be undone by a mass market that cannot buy the products they peddle. If they could all be like FedEx Ground, they would, just to boost short term profits and enrich themselves at the country's expense.

Carter was elected in 1976, but his failures as President weren't a blank check for Reagan to take dead aim at the unions and blame them for everything that was wrong with America. "Trickle-down" is a joke, and Reagan's Free Market garbage is just that...garbage. There is no "free market" when government doles-out farm subsidies, special exemptions, and bailouts for selected companies (remember Chrysler, the first time around?)

No, unions aren't perfect, but it's way past time for American workers to take back at least some of what they've lost. It all can't be attributed to a global economy either, because corporate greed has mandated that employees take far less, while CEO's and top management laugh all the way to the bank. Sorry, but that's not acceptable. At some point, workers will see the pendulum swing their way. The concentration of wealth in US society is insanely unbalanced, and the rich grow richer while the rest of us head the other way. That isn't going to last much longer.
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
Does FedEx pay that or does our insurance provider?

And do you really appreciate how much we struggle? You've asked me several times in the past if I really felt that I deserve as much as you seeing as how you've got more years in than me. Point is that we are NEVER going to get the same deal as you got, and working 25 to 30 years to finally catch your top pay won't provide us with the life that you feel blessed to be a part of. Nice to know you care though!
C'mon Van, you're smarter than that. FedEx is self-insured. Cigna/Anthem might write the check but whose bank account do you think it is coming out of. FedEx absolutely paid that $82k.
On your other point, I don't think it's fair that other people got to buy Microsoft stock before I did and I'll never catch up with them. But it is what it is. I don't expect MS to sell me stock at a previous day's price and I don't expect FedEx to go back to arbitrary raises. I realize that people want 20% raises every year but that just isn't going to happen. I would love for people to get that and I would love for the Bills to win the Superbowl this year. Again, just isn't going to happen. Doesn't mean I don't feel for the Bills or my fellow employees.
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
#17 Rely on employees who still believe in the fallacy of PSP to see things through rose-colored glasses instead of the way they really are.

No pointy tinfoil cap required to see reality here. Perhaps they're required attire on your planet.
Well, I really, really did get $82k in medical bills paid for me and even though I went to the eye doctor I never did get any rose-colored glasses so I don't know what to tell ya.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
C'mon Van, you're smarter than that. FedEx is self-insured. Cigna/Anthem might write the check but whose bank account do you think it is coming out of. FedEx absolutely paid that $82k.

And I thought you were smarter. Of course FedEx is self insured for it's business. But employee healthcare is a whole other matter. Anthem Blue Cross takes premiums from us and in return covers our healthcare costs within limits. We don't pay premiums and then when an employee has a health issue pay for that too.

As to the rest, you can't begin to know what it's like to have been lied too and not get what was promised because you got yours. Not implied but promised. Yeah, I know, the world's not fair, but when you work for many years towards a goal and they don't honor what they repeatedly said you get, it hurts. They had already started hiring people under the new pension plan so why not leave leave those of us under the old plan alone so we could get our 25 years in? Profits and stock price, nothing more. Their bank accounts are more important to them than our retirement. Spin it any way you want, we were lied to. They should have seen us through until everyone vested under the traditional pension had earned a full pension or had left the company. Instead they are now, between pay, benefits, and the new "pension" holding us down to where we can't decently fund the 401k or save enough to retire decently. But hey, profits are up! And look at that stock price!
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
And I thought you were smarter. Of course FedEx is self insured for it's business. But employee healthcare is a whole other matter. Anthem Blue Cross takes premiums from us and in return covers our healthcare costs within limits. We don't pay premiums and then when an employee has a health issue pay for that too.
Van, I don't know what else to tell you. The checks that Cigna/Anthem write are coming out of a FedEx bank account. The premiums we pay go to FedEx. The copays etc help put part of the cost of health care on those that use it. Cigna/Anthem is the vendor whom FedEx pays to administer the plan. It's not like when an individual pays State Farm for their car insurance and then State Farm pays the claim out of their account. If you have Metlife through FedEx for your auto or home insurance, look at your paystub and you'll see a separate line item for that as those premiums do go to Metlife.

As to the rest, you can't begin to know what it's like to have been lied too and not get what was promised because you got yours. Not implied but promised. Yeah, I know, the world's not fair, but when you work for many years towards a goal and they don't honor what they repeatedly said you get, it hurts. They had already started hiring people under the new pension plan so why not leave leave those of us under the old plan alone so we could get our 25 years in? Profits and stock price, nothing more. Their bank accounts are more important to them than our retirement. Spin it any way you want, we were lied to. They should have seen us through until everyone vested under the traditional pension had earned a full pension or had left the company. Instead they are now, between pay, benefits, and the new "pension" holding us down to where we can't decently fund the 401k or save enough to retire decently. But hey, profits are up! And look at that stock price!
The cost to sustain the old pension plan, even for existing employees, was simply too great. With the change in the law, companies can no longer average out their investments when predicting future pension payouts. (My terminology might not be correct here but that's the essence of it). They have to fund on a given date each year and if the market isn't doing well, you can no longer say "well historically, the market will pick back up and we'll have what we need as we need it to pay pensions". You now have to take that date each year and essentially say something to the effect of "the market isn't doing well and we don't know if it will recover so we might not have enough money 20 years down the road. We have to put in $1.5billion this year. Under the old rules we only needed to put in $400million." Again, might not be totally on point but that's the gist of it. If you want to read up on it, just look up the ERISA and the Pension Protection Act of 1996.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Van, I don't know what else to tell you. The checks that Cigna/Anthem write are coming out of a FedEx bank account. The premiums we pay go to FedEx. The copays etc help put part of the cost of health care on those that use it. Cigna/Anthem is the vendor whom FedEx pays to administer the plan.

If that is so then why switch from Cigna to Anthem since FedEx is paying anyways? And if it really is paying then it's actually the employees' premiums paying the difference, not FedEx. But truth is our healthcare is paid for by separate insurance companies who are highly regulated by every state. Which is why coverage in some states, like Hawaii, is much more extensive than in other states as certain things are mandated by their state laws.

Yeah I know about the new accounting rules. You've never explained why the new portable pension, which apparently is under different rules, isn't as generous as the old plan. Again, just a ploy for FexEx and other companies to dump traditional plans.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Consider this. The pension funding rules were changed to protect recipients. FedEx wasn't the only large corporation that dumped it's traditional plan due to the new rules. If the intent of the new rules were to protect plan recipients then why weren't the rules amended when Congress realized they were actually hurting plan recipients? This was all by design. Same deal with the FAA reauthorization never coming up for a vote. Threats are made by Congress, money gets paid, we get screwed.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Of course there is a cyclical nature to business/labor relations. It's just that at the end of this cycle, health care will be picked up by government rather than by business. Just because a pendulum swings, doesn't mean it equally always. Look at a metronome.
 

DOWNTRODDEN IN TEXAS

Well-Known Member
Ok, my father was a Teamster for the first 12 years of my life. In '85 he went off on his own business adventure, and in '92 got tired of it and went to FedEx. In '97 he went back to his original job and in '99 (I think..might be off on the year a bit) UPS bought that company. He retired last year and is receiving only a small amount less than he would if he had stayed on for the entire time. This is the guarantee that only a contract can provide.

Now if I were to quit FedEx, and go back in 12 years, would I get this same treatment? Absolutely not. As FedEx employees, we need to get off our collective asses, get the IBT off theirs, and collectively bargain our way to a fair wage and benefit package. I don't expect $30 an hour, but it would be nice to know that since I do have almost 15 years in, that I would make more than a handler or a new hire courier. I know my family and friends get tired of hearing about it, and some say I should quit, but I don't want to start over...I just want to be treated fairly. And yes, I know there are some newer couriers that make more than me and sometimes it really chaps my hide...
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Consider this. The pension funding rules were changed to protect recipients. FedEx wasn't the only large corporation that dumped it's traditional plan due to the new rules. If the intent of the new rules were to protect plan recipients then why weren't the rules amended when Congress realized they were actually hurting plan recipients? This was all by design. Same deal with the FAA reauthorization never coming up for a vote. Threats are made by Congress, money gets paid, we get screwed.

I'm sure glad that Fred "protected" me from that mean old Traditional Pension Plan. I fully agree that this was a Trojan Horse deal that allowed many big companies a convenient out from real pension plans. Always remember that "FedEx is an airline", and that Fred didn't want us to suffer like the real passenger airline employees did. That Fred, always thinking of us.
 

quadro

Well-Known Member
If that is so then why switch from Cigna to Anthem since FedEx is paying anyways? And if it really is paying then it's actually the employees' premiums paying the difference, not FedEx. But truth is our healthcare is paid for by separate insurance companies who are highly regulated by every state. Which is why coverage in some states, like Hawaii, is much more extensive than in other states as certain things are mandated by their state laws.

Yeah I know about the new accounting rules. You've never explained why the new portable pension, which apparently is under different rules, isn't as generous as the old plan. Again, just a ploy for FexEx and other companies to dump traditional plans.
I can only make an educated guess about the switch and that's simply that either the administrative costs were lower for Anthem or Anthem had better buying power in certain states. Or both. Remember some states are still under Cigna. Our healthcare is not paid for by separate insurance companies. Our healthcare plan is administered by separate insurance companies. The bills are paid by FedEx. The premiums are to help offset the high cost of healthcare and are graduated based on what risk you are willing to take and who you are covering (self, spouse, etc). I'd be very surprised if the premiums collected come anywhere close to paying the difference between what you pay the doctor and what FedEx pays the doctor.

And so what if certain things are mandated by state laws? That doesn't have anything to do with who is paying the bills.

As for the PPP, I honestly don't know why the new plan isn't as generous. I can only assume because it's cheaper not to be as generous. It's not a ploy. All you have to do is look at how the Pension Protection Act changed the way defined benefit plans are funded to see why more and more business dumped them. As usual, government thought they knew what is best for everyone and they screwed it up.
 

vantexan

Well-Known Member
Our healthcare is not paid for by separate insurance companies./QUOTE]

Think about what is collected monthly from each employee times the number of employees and add what FedEx contributes. That goes to an insurance company that takes it's cut and pays the medical bills from the rest. FedEx is self-insured to cover accidents we get into as no insurance company will touch that risk. Even then if an employee is hurt in an accident it's his healthcare insurance that pays for his treatment, not FedEx. Insurance companies operate with a vast pool of money, not just company specific. The reason our monthly premiums are reasonable is the company brings a large number of premium payers to the pool thus giving us a group discount. Actuaries figure out what to charge based on risk data.
 

DOWNTRODDEN IN TEXAS

Well-Known Member
Dang, I thought they responded to one of those yard signs for cheap group insurance down by the red light before you get on the freeway. Or maybe the one on Cragisist....those really made more sense.

I already had to get a 2 new PCP's in my house because they won't take Anthem. And that sucks because finding a new doctor is worse than blind dating.
 
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