UPS subsidizing non ups pensions

tieguy

Banned
Perhaps jon could try to actually make his point rather then hoping someone bites on his offer.

take the CS plan for a start jon. How many employers are paying into the CS plan. How many retirees from now defunct companies are drawing from the plan. What level of funding is the plan at. And if you conceed the plan is not funded at 100 percent then perhaps explain the drain on what UPS is paying in.

Or perhaps you could do a comparison of the upstate ny plan to CS and explain the huge disparity.

Or perhaps do a hard analysis of the difference between the payout of a multi employer plan compared to a UPSers only plan.
 

trickpony1

Well-Known Member
thanks Moreluck and OldUpsdriver-

Someone told me that Arizona and New Mexico were in their own little conference and that the company handled the unionized person's medical insurance.

Further, this same person told me that the aforementioned states unionized employee's pension was handled by the IBT and it took a hit when CS did but quickly bounced back.

Is this info accurate?
 

Cezanne

Well-Known Member
In my area we are under the Central States pension, question to other UPS teamsters out there: Are your part timers or your part time years before you became full time covered under the union or company plans? If so how are those part time years counted toward your overall retirement and were they funded the same as a fulltimer per Article 34, master (Health and Welfare) that is a hourly contribution weekly that increased per contractual agreements. As far as I know all the vested part time pension hours within the Central States area are covered with the company plan. It could be one of the reasons of the disparity of funding, considering the average ages of the younger participants who could contribute to that fund for 25 plus years. For the most part it took most of us 7 to 15 years to get a full time position, before these newly create combo jobs. Most of us were in our 30's before we started contributing into the teamster funds, fact is we started in a hole saving for our retirement compared to the other barns that were not part time heavy. Those who checked into those part time years found that they will get peanuts if they decide to retire before 65. The benefit is based on a percentage of a 30 year benefit, ten years equals one third of basically a thousand dollars equalling about 300 at age 65. That 300 is reduced six percent per year prior to age 65, so if you wanted to retire at 55, your 300 dollars is cut by 60 percent about 120 dollars. In the Central States conference that company pension monetary benefit is combined with your full time teamster plan benefit to get your pension payout.
 
J

JonFrum

Guest
Still waiting for proof of the massive subsidy of other retirees by UPS. . . . Remember, everyone, the burden of proof is always on he who makes the assertion, in this case, on those who claim UPS is subsidizing non-UPS retirees by as much as 60%, leaving UPS retirees to settle for only 40% of the funds UPS contributed on their behalf. UPS contributes over a billion dollars every year to these funds and like they say in Washington, DC about our tax money: "a billion here, a billion there, pretty soon were talkin' real money."

I assume everyone would like proof of where this money --- our money --- has been going, and proof of where various people propose to put it in the future. It's like going down to the basement to examine your existing house for water damage, termite damage, etc., and examining any proposed replacement house for the same, as well as to make sure the new house actually exists as advertised in the first place.
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Many retirees take their retirement in the form of a Lump Sum. Here in the New England fund, anyone with a small retirement is cashed-out in a one-time lump sum payment when they become eligible to collect, usually at age 64. (In Central States "Normal Retirement Age" is 65, I'm told.) Other retirees with higher monthly benefit check levels can take a lump sum of 10% at the start of their retirement. Their monthly benefit check amount is reduced accordingly. Still other retirees are cashed-out by the fund buying an annuity for them. The annuity company assumes the responsibility of providing a monthly check to the retiree until their death or until their spouse's death depending on the arrangement. Some retirees opt for a guaranteed number of checks, and understand that they will get every check no matter what their personal circumstances, but that the checks will stop eventually and they may outlive their money. The point of all this is any non-UPS retiree in any of these payout situations has in effect been paid off by the plan out of existing plan money at the time of their initial retirement. Such retirees are not an ongoing drain on UPS or even on the fund as a whole. Any Lump Sum payoff or Annuity payoff is, in effect, old news and has already been accounted for by the fund's actuaries who are routinely recalculating the fund's financial status and what benefits it can afford to pay, and under what conditions and assumptions. Any analysis of possible subsidy should exclude all these cashed-out retirees, just as non-vested retirees who are ineligible for any benefits at all must be excluded.
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I hope everyone understands that pension matters are complicated enough to start with, and even more so with the numerous plans, each with there own set of features, plus the new pension law. It's hard for me or anyone to say anything definitive that will apply to all plans at all times. There will be unavoidable oversimplifications and exceptions to every rule. Oh, and pension stuff is really, really booring, too!
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When evaluating a set of bonehead trustees who invested your funds assets in stocks or real estate or whatever, and lost a significant portion of your future retirement money, let's be fair. The markets usually bounce back partially shortly thereafter, so the loss isn't as big as first experienced. They shouldn't have had your funds at risk in the first place, but since they did, let's be accurate and recognize the net loss is not as bad as the initial loss.
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If trustees, or anyone else, suggest that "changing demographics" are the reason your benefits are being cut, they are just trying to deflect your attention away from the fact that they lost a big chunk of your money, instead of making a big chunk of money on your money. The adverse demographic they point to the most is the dwindling number of active (contributing) plan members, and the increasing number of plan retirees, who cost the fund money with every benefit check they collect. The moment when the number of Retirees actually exceeds the number of Actives apparently has special mystical significance, like a full eclipse to the Druids. Some funds have passed this point. But so what? Remember, your account is an individual one (sorta, kinda) and is relatively independent of other accounts. Grouping all active accounts together into an Active Contributors group, and grouping all retirees into a Retirees Who Are Draining Our Assets Monthly group is interesting but of limited usefulness. Indeed, the whole purpose of the plan is for everyone to be an Active contributor for many years, build up a sizable account, then switch to Retiree and live off the money. The groupings are somewhat artificial.

Imagine a really small fund, just a thousand 21 year old guys who all get hired on the same day, contribute to the fund at the same hourly rate, work 30 years, and all retire on the same day. The fund would initially come into existance to receive their first month's contributions, then assets would steadily grow monthly over the next thirty years (assuming no bonehead trustee investment advisors), with no retirees draining the fund. Then, everyone would file for retirement and slowly begin depleating the fund until it eventually went out of existance in an orderly manner having served its purpose. This is greatly oversimplified, but it illustrates that as long as the trustees and the actuaries do their job, and as long as the members are kept informed so they know what kind of retirement checks to expect, then it's OK for a fund to be lopsided in favor of Actives now and Retirees later.

Just as the country has been steadily abandoning Unions for the last half century, so they are now abandoning Defined Benefit pension plans. Fewer want to join an existing plan, and no one wants to start a new plan. A fund with an "excess" of retirees is a shrinking fund and will be the norm from now on. This will psychologically make the trustees and plan sponsors feel uneasy, especially if they believe size matters. Note that when an active member retires the fund takes a double hit. First the fund looses the member's regular contributions. Second, the fund begins paying out benefits. Trustees must have mixed feelings when they see you walk in the door to file your retirement papers.
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If a plan looses money through bad investing, the losses are distributed over everyone in the plan, except those who have already begun collecting retirement checks and those who have earned vested benefits. Trustees are forbidden by law to decrease retiree benefit levels once they have begun collecting. And trustees can not reduce vested benefits of active and inactive-but-not-yet-retired members. Trustees can, and probably must, reduce the future benefit accrual rates for any pension credits earned from that day foreward. They can also move the goal post further away so you have to work longer until you are eligible to retire. ( Social Security has also moved the goal post from 65 to 66 to 67 for younger workers.) Trustees are obligated to constantly rebalance the fund actuarily so future obligations are in line with assets and contributions and investment gains (or losses.) Trustees have a "fiduciary duty" to run the plan in the sole interest of the plan participants as a whole, so they spread out gains and losses over everyone that they can, legally. They also amortize everything, which is the spreading out over time. This way no one, or no group is singled out to bare the burden or reap the reward of a momentary gain or loss. That's the theory anyway. Spreading out losses in as many ways as possible also spreads the misery more thinly so no group will be so enraged as to sue the trustees.
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Let's clarify that the individual account you have as an active member of the pension plan has some strings attached. First, you don't have a right to any of the money until you get vested. That takes five years; it use to take ten! Second, the money isn't collectible until you reach a certain age like 52 or 55 or 57 or 64 or 65 or whatever depending on the details of your fund rules. Third, if you are eligible to retire at the earlier ages, you will have your monthly benefit reduced accordingly. Other strings apply as well. Your money is comingled with everyone else's but your Pension Credit Account is seperate and keeps track. Your account is not actually denominated in dollars, it's in Pension Credits, which are convertible to dollars eventually, kind of like casino chips, except that Vegas at least doesn't lower the value of some of the chips as you walk toward the teller window. Pension trustees must rebalance the fund to keep it financially sound and in compliance with the law, so if the fund has troubles, you have troubles. "Pay attention to your pension."
 
J

JonFrum

Guest
I maintain there is in fact a subsidy going on, it's just not big enough to get very upset about. The total subsidy is spread out among several features of the pension plans and is hard to identify. There is the uncollectible portion of Withdrawal Liability which by definition is owed by defunct companies and paid by still existing ones. There's the "free look" provision which (I think) allows new companies to join the plan without having to worry about Withdrawal Liability for a while. There's the granting of free Past Service Credit to the members of a new company joining the fund. The members get limited unearned Pension Credits in proportion to their years of service with the new company prior to its joining the fund. There's investment losses, which are borne by the pension credit earners from the time of the loss, and thereafter. If anyone has estimates of the extent of these or any other subsidies, post your infomation. Remember, UPS may have been on the receiving end of some of these subsidies for a time, so only the net amount would qualify as a subsidy.
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When advocating Partitioning the funds so UPS contributions benefit only UPS retirees, bare in mind that the funds are already partitioned in a way. Each employer contributes at a given hourly rate on behalf of its employees. The higher the rate the higher the benefit. In effect, each employer and its employees are in a category which it shares only with other employers and employees at the same contribution level.
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I can usually only crank these postings out on Sunday nights because working for UPS Monday through Friday is time consuming and draining. If I find the time I plan future posts that compare Single-Employer vs. Multi-Employer funds (the Multi-Employer funds win by a landslide), and an explanation of why so much of UPS' contributions never benefit UPS retirees. ( Hint: it's because so many UPSers have contributions made by UPS on their behalf, but they fall short of reaching one or more of the many milestones along the way to obtaining the benefits offered. If UPS didn't make getting to the finish line so difficult, and tried to advise employees of the benchmarks and assist them in meeting them, then many more would qualify for at least some benefits and others would qualify for ever higher benefit levels. In effect, UPS and UPSers probably hold the world's record for "Abandoned Property" when it comes to deliberately leaving monies unclaimed due to lack of meeting known eligibility requirements. It's like a baseball team that routinely strikes out to end the inning with the bases loaded. No runs score, the three baserunners just disolve, poof!) I'd also like to expose the many shortcomings of the pension plan proposed by UPS in 1997, and analyze the plan proposed by the APWA. If anyone has facts, corrections, or opinions on any of this, post away.
 

Cezanne

Well-Known Member
Know what you mean when you say that active employees have a hard time fully responding to the debates on this forum. Half the time I sleep walk through mine, sure shows with the grammar and spelling. Only so much time to a day and besides that are we making any real improvements with the problems quoted on this site, basically a soapbox spouting off information that most of the viewers are not getting. Your statement about unclaimed funds, I presume you are talking about the participants in the pension plans that leave before the five year vesting. I believe that those ex employees get a lump sump when they quit. In my area (Central States) the turnover of part timers is out of control. To keep UPS from paying that requirement from my understanding that there is a agreement that for the first two or three years of hire they are not required to put any monetary contribution to cover the part time years. By law you become vested by five, can understand this would save alot of record keeping and money.

Since you are under the New England fund, can you tell us how they handle the part time years considering that the part timers are in the Teamster's plans instead of the company's? I do know that the improvements in vesting in Master lanuage only covered the part time years under company control, so your part time years are reduced as far as when you start vesting age 25 and the hours required to get a full vested year.

The question to why the company is claiming that the drain with these defunct companies will drive them to bankruptcy. Again I do not see it, with this pension reform act just around the corner and the requirement to plans to be 100 percent vested in seven years, is it an attempt to by pass additional monetary contributions to get those benefit plans up to federal mandates?

Off to work I go, later:thumbup1:
 

local776

Well-Known Member
Re: UPS Pension Subsidy of NonUPSers

a fair question maybe you need to go to the union hall and look thru the book. As all of are able to see them. ask q
 

tieguy

Banned
The question to why the company is claiming that the drain with these defunct companies will drive them to bankruptcy. Again I do not see it, with this pension reform act just around the corner and the requirement to plans to be 100 percent vested in seven years, is it an attempt to by pass additional monetary contributions to get those benefit plans up to federal mandates?

Off to work I go, later:thumbup1:

As of 2003 11 of 21 multi-employer funds ups participates in were funded at 70 percent or less. With these funds the IRS can step in and demand the employers step in and increase the contributions to the fund until the fund is healthy again. In the case of Central States this could be catastrophic since UPS is one of the few employers still feeding into that plan. Sounds like anonymous Jon is an IBT pension stalwart who will now tell us why this central states pension plan is the next best thing to sliced bread.
 

Cezanne

Well-Known Member
Is this why the company and union agreed to start with early negotiations? From my understanding the law does not fully go nto effect till January 2008. Is this next contract going to be settled before that date to bypass any federal involvement? How much would it take hourly increases into the Teamsters' pension and health and welfare funds to get at a 100 percent vested ratio in these underfunded plans?

Another truth is that any union job at UPS are not designed for individuals to work past 60 years of age. Members are breaking down, sometimes permanently, the cost for disability insurance has to be going through the roof. With most of us starting under the UPS Pension plan for part timers for basically the first 10 years of our employment, we are starting out in the Central States plan in our 30's, 40's and 50's, we are not physically going to last long enought to enjoy any reasonable retirement. Basically we are in a hole compared to other union companies that have employees contribution since their early twenties. Maybe UPS will raise the monetary benefit for those past years to help their union retirees, all it would take is to switch annual contributions from the management plan (UPS Retirement plan) to the part time plan (UPS Pension plan). What do you think, will this happen considering the company's apparent concern over our plight?
 
J

JonFrum

Guest
To read UPS' official (misleading) views on pensions visit the UPSers Dot Com website. Logon to http://www.upsers.com then click the My Life & Career tab, then Finance & Retirement, then Multi-employer Plans.

To read the official (misleading) view of the Association of Parcel Workers of America, visit . . .
ItsMAP.Com
Among other things, they still, after all this time, say: "(44 weeks=less than 4 years)" when they of course mean "(44 months = less than 4 years)."
And . . .
ItsMAP.Com

To read the official (misleading) view of the Central States Fund visit . . .
Central States Funds | Home

Tieguy, about 3,500 employers still contribute to the Central States Pension fund and/or the Health & Welfare fund. The great strength of a multi-employer fund is that it is not dependent on a single company. A single-employer plan is totally dependent on its one and only contributing company, and the fund fails when the company does. Individual companies fail all too frequently. Just look at all the household names you grew up with and had confidence in, that are now just a memory. Some multi-employer funds, even dysfunctional ones like Central States (which operates under court supervision and still manages to screw up), achieve even greater strength by including employers from many industries, not just one. Thus, even if an entire industry, like steel or airlines, experiences financial losses and bankruptcies, the fund keeps chuggin' along, albeit not on all cylinders. Actual bankruptcy --- the inability to pay promised benefits --- is all but impossible in a multi-employer fund that has an adequate number of contributing employers, especially if they are in diverse industries. Single-employer plans fail at 100 times the rate of multi-employer plans!!! Although single-employer plans have better insurance coverage, the insurer, the Pension Benefits Guarantee Corporation,
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC)
is itself practically bankrupt and faces huge liabilities from the many funds that it will have to bail out in the future. Also, the higher benefit guarantees of a single-employer fund are not a market driven result but a political one. And the guarantees, as unreliable as they will be, are only relevant if a plan actually fails. It is plan success we should be focused on. In any event, Defined Benefit plans are getting less popular by the day, as employers switch to 401(k) and other Defined Contribution plans, or no plans at all.

Visit the fund I'm in at New England Teamsters & Trucking Industry Pension Fund
Click on Slide Show Untitled Document to view an impressive (misleading) explanation of why the trustees had to cut our benefits and raise the early retirement age from 52 to 57, and why it's not their fault. The're actually wise, prudent, concerned, foreward-looking, humanitarians who have the courage to take necessary corrective action when circumstances demand. Like when they loose a boat-load of our money in the stock market.

Click on Tables (table 11) to see that despite all the cuts, 30 full years of Pension Credits, at age 57 (earlier if you were grandfathered before they made the cuts) will get you $3,500 a month, and you can get the maximum $4,700 with 33 to 38 full years of Pension Credits, depending on your age. Cezanne, part-timers can get these same benefits too, although they would need to work more than part-time hours, and work extra years to qualify. Part-timers who don't qualify, must settle for Table 12 where the dollar amounts are exactly half the "full-timer" ones. Part-timers have been covered by the New England fund all along, and they are subject to the same rules as full-timers. But they tend to get only a partial pension credit each year, say seven to eleven months' worth, depending on how many hours they work. Consequently, it takes them, and any full-timer who started out as a part-timer, longer to accumulate the necessary full year Pension Credits. The special 50% part-time pension, for those part-timers who really do only work part-time hours, was added about a decade ago.

To read the (misleading) view of the Motor Freight Carriers Association, visit April 29, 2004 Pension

To learn about pension issues visit Watson Wyatt Worldwide at Watson Wyatt United States - Hot Topics, 2006 Pension Funding Reform
and
Watson Wyatt - Insider
 
J

JonFrum

Guest
The Pension Benefits Guarantee Corporation has an informative website. Here's some quotes from them on the sorry state of single-employer plans in general, and the financial problems of the PBGC that "insures" them:

"As of September 30, 2005, the end of the 2005 fiscal year, PBGC reported a $22.8 billion deficit in the financial statements for its single-employer pension insurance program."
"The PBGC estimates that, measured on a termination basis, total underfunding in the single-employer defined benefit plans it insures exceeded $450 billion as of September 30, 2005."
"Most of the $450 billion of total underfunding is in pension plans sponsored by healthy companies that should be able to fund promised benefits over time. However, $108 billion of underfunding for vested benefits is in plans sponsored by companies whose bonds are rated below investment grade. . . . [Such] . . . companies are 20 times more likely to default on their debt obligations than investment-grade companies."
"Companies typically do not use a termination basis to calculate the plan funding status they report to participants. The main differences are in the discount rate used to calculate the present value of benefits, the expected retirement age used to estimate when benefits will commence and the amount of early retirement benefits that will become payable. Companies tend to use a higher discount rate that reflects expected investment returns or perhaps an average of past investment returns, and later expected retirement ages that do not assume increased rates of early retirement."
"The assumptions companies use to measure liabilities often understate the plan’s underfunding compared to its underfunding on a termination basis. As a result, participants in terminating plans often are alarmed to learn just how poorly funded their plan is. For example, Bethlehem Steel reported that its plan was 84 percent funded on an ongoing basis, but the plan turned out to be only 45 percent funded on a termination basis, with a total shortfall of $4.3 billion. US Airways’ pilots’ plan was 94 percent funded on an ongoing basis, but the plan was only 33 percent funded on a termination basis, with a $2.5 billion shortfall."

Source: Understanding the Financial Condition of the Pension Insurance Program (PBGC.gov)
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Tieguy, You're right that if a pension fund's funding level falls severely enough, that contributing employers are forced by law to make emergency contributions to bring the funding level up above the critical zone. However, this rarely happens in multi-employer funds, because the same stock, real estate, bond, interest rate, market that goes down, always goes back up, although sometimes it takes its own sweet time. Even major downturns in the stock market are not as bad as they seem at first. Usually the market recovers partly right away, and recovers completely eventually. The DJIA is just now reaching its old record level as these exerpts (below) from an AP news report indicate. The various pension and health & welfare funds must surely be benefiting. They aren't out of the woods yet but they are not critical; there is no need for employers to make emergency contributions.

The trouble with investing is no one has a crystal ball. Investing involves risk. No one really knows how to consistently "beat" the market, though many imply they can. One pension fund looses billions, another doesn't, all because the first fund was invested in the market when it decided to go South, the other wasn't. This almost random game of chance is a wildcard in the pension world and can trouble single-employer and multi-employer funds alike. But the single-employer funds have the major additional worry that since they are totally dependent on just one employer, when it is in financial trouble, or bankrupt, the fund itself usually fails. Any airplane can develop engine trouble, but a single-engine plane will probably crash and burn.

Dow Ends Up 29 After Reaching Milestone
09/28/06 18:10 EDT
By ELLEN SIMON

NEW YORK (AP) - The Dow Jones industrial average reached a milestone Thursday in Wall Street's nearly seven-year recovery from corporate upheaval, economic recession and terrorism, briefly trading above its record high close of 11,722.98 set on Jan. 14, 2000.
The index of 30 blue chip stocks surpassed its record, rising to a high of 11,728.46 in early morning trading. Stocks closed only modestly higher amid a dearth of news that could motivate investors; still, it was the market's fourth straight advance.
The S&P, which gained 2.56, or 0.19 percent, to close at 1,339.15, is still about 188 points below its closing high of 1,527.46, but is at a 5 1/2-year high. The Nasdaq, which rose 6.63, or 0.29 percent, to 2,270.02, is not expected to approach its high close of 5,048.62 any time soon.
The last time the Dow stood at these levels, Wall Street was propelled by wide-eyed investors eager for a slice of the wealth being generated by the dot-com and housing booms. Traders raced to buy any stocks that looked remotely promising, catapulting the major indexes sharply higher.
But after early 2000, the market began to crumble, slowly at first as doubts about the high-tech boom set in. Signs of recession accelerated the decline, and then the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks and their aftermath, including earnings declines and losses in many industries, sent stocks plunging.
It didn't stop there - corporate scandals including the collapse of Enron Corp. and WorldCom Inc. also shook Wall Street. The combination of all these factors devastated stocks, sending the Dow to a five-year closing low of 7,286.27 on Oct. 9, 2002, nearly 38 percent off its record high close.
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Cezanne, to clarify, any pension fund participant who permanently withdraws from the fund, (stops having contributions made on his/her behalf) simply abandons those contributions if they had not yet achieved Vesting Status. Vesting usually requires about five years of participation, although it use to require ten! Leave the fund even one hour before achieving vesting status and you are "voluntarily" abandoning all those tens of thousands of dollars. They are the property of the fund to be used to cover general expenses. This is like buying a ticket in advance to a movie or other event. If you leave before it ends, you don't get a refund if the fine print on the back of the ticket says you don't. The Law assumes you read and agreed to the terms even though we all know few actually read the fine print. This "no refund" policy is bad enough in relatively small matters like single ticket purchases, but is truly outrageous when applied to as many as five or ten years of pension contributions. In any event, UPS is obviously not subsidizing these non-vested people because they never collect a cent. Others who are vested are cashed-out for convience with a lump sum payment if their total retirement benefit is small. Still other vested retirees with more reasonable benefit amounts may opt to receive up to 10% of their benefit in the form of a lump sum, (with their monthly benefit amount reduced for life accordingly.) Still others may have their retirement benefit paid in the form of an annuity. My point is, any time the fund either doesn't owe someone a retirement benefit in the first place, or has already paid in full certain lump sum and annuity benefits in years' past, then how can anyone claim UPS is currently subsidizing them, and will be burdened to do so on into the future? Aren't such people's accounts closed, and no longer a factor?
 
J

JonFrum

Guest
APWA seems to be limiting its promise of a $7,000 a month pension, and lowering its prediction of a 12.34% or more return on investment. But it's hard to know for sure. Now I'm reading that the APWA plans to sue the pension funds to recover as much of UPS' past contributions as possible and transfer the money into a new UPSers-only pension fund. Do they have any idea how high a burden of proof they will have to meet to get a judge to order this? Years ago the New England Teamsters Pension Improvement Committee (NETPIC) tried. They sued the New England Teamsters and Trucking Industry Pension Fund asking that the UPS monies be partitioned within the fund so UPS contributions would benefit UPSers only. Their fallback position, if Judge Harrington wouldn't agree to a partition, was to withdraw UPS contributions and turn them over to a new fund made up of UPSers only. Sound familiar? Despite being on the side of the angels, NETPIC lost on both counts. Then they appealed and lost again in front of a three judge panel. The 27 page appeal decision is illuminating reading. Save a copy and read it later. . . .

USCA1 Opinion 91-1542

If anyone has a copy of the original opinion by Judge Harrington, please post it. I attended the six day trial and have lots of handouts and notes, but I don't have the judge's opinion. I do have the above link to the denial of appeal opinion, but it restates some of the original issues, and is must reading. You'll learn that the monies are not yours or the Teamsters, but technically the property of the Trust. That when the Trust confiscates the contributions of all employees who fail to achieve vesting status, (back then, ten years), that's OK, it's what pension funds do! That if UPS retirees get only 40% or so of their contributions back in the form of retiree benefits, that's OK. Because the Trust adopted a "no transfer" clause, they can refuse to transfer funds to a new fund, period.

Judges are very reluctant to intervene in private party arrangements, especially those involving labor negotiations. The Law assumes each of you, and your employer and union, knew and agreed to every word of the Trust Agreement, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, pension law, laws in general, and stay fully up-to-date on all matters under the sun. Although trustees have a fiduciary duty to operate the fund for the sole benefit of the participants, they are decision-makers and can exercise their judgement to favor or penalize one group or another, so long as they are not unreasonable, and there is a higher fund purpose they hope to achieve. If Congress set forth pension fund rules that make them inherently unfair, the courts must take that unfairness as a given and accept it without objection. Courts will only act if you can show unreasonableness, arbitrariness, or outright criminality on the part of the trustees. Life is hard, then you die.
 

tieguy

Banned
Tieguy, about 3,500 employers still contribute to the Central States Pension fund and/or the Health & Welfare fund.

And the great weakness of a multi employer plan would be what has happened to the CS states plans which is hideously underfunded due to the loss of contributing employers. While the 3500 employers looks impressive you know that number is totally misleading. For someone who lists other misleading sources you now appear to be attempting to mislead this crowd with such a number. The true number as you should know is how much is going in the kitty and how much is coming out. As you should know too much is coming out too fast and you should also know UPS is the biggest contributer of funds going in. Now instead of misleading the crowd with the 3500 number you should be explaining why there is too much coming out of CS and not as enough going in? As you do so you will stumble across what the rest of us already know.

The great strength of a multi-employer fund is that it is not dependent on a single company. A single-employer plan is totally dependent on its one and only contributing company, and the fund fails when the company does.

Ah yes one of my favorite arguments from the Multi employer plan Stalwarts. CS is in danger of failing. Should it do so please tell us about the 10,000 a year its recipients get from its insurer.

Then tell us about the private plans insurance requirements. Is it not true that single employer plans are much more heavily regulated and have to meet much more stringent funding guidelines then multi-employer plans? Is it not also true that the insurance payout from a single employer plan is 3 to 4 times that of a failed multi-employer plan or approximately 30 to 40 thousand a year?

Individual companies fail all too frequently. Just look at all the household names you grew up with and had confidence in, that are now just a memory. Some multi-employer funds, even dysfunctional ones like Central States (which operates under court supervision and still manages to screw up), achieve even greater strength by including employers from many industries, not just one.

and yet they still screw up. Thus your argument contradicts itself. How can a plan which is in danger of failing be drawing strength from anything. Its failing dude there is no strength here.


Thus, even if an entire industry, like steel or airlines, experiences financial losses and bankruptcies, the fund keeps chuggin' along, albeit not on all cylinders. Actual bankruptcy --- the inability to pay promised benefits --- is all but impossible in a multi-employer fund that has an adequate number of contributing employers, especially if they are in diverse industries.

Dude you are really out there now. All your theories of should be happening with multi-employer plans is in fact not happening now. If anything you now give those here no hope for a better pension since you discredit the private plans and we already know the multiemployer plans are failing miserably.
 

scratch

Least Best Moderator
Staff member
I am in Central States, and at a Pension Planning meeting we were told by a CS Rep that 220,000 retirees are taking money out and only 170,000 active members are putting contributions in. That doesn't sound very promising to me!
 

tieguy

Banned
I am in Central States, and at a Pension Planning meeting we were told by a CS Rep that 220,000 retirees are taking money out and only 170,000 active members are putting contributions in. That doesn't sound very promising to me!


Sadly that ratio has been prevalent for a number of years now.
Jon keeps trying to tell us how great these multi-employer plans are compared to upser only plans but can't defend this statistic and tried to ignore it up by stating CS has 3500 employers contributing.

By the way I am not in any way supporting APWA here. I personally think they have much to prove and need to start posting some rock solid details of how they would fix this mess. I do think our people work to hard to get short changed on their pensions and this anonymous schumk defending the ailing multi employer plans is another part to this problem.
 

mittam

Well-Known Member
Have you seen the McDivit report sworn under oath in United States Supreme Court? MR. McDivit explains the plan and there he stated that only 40% of UPS contributions goes to UPS people while the other 60% goes to other teamster companies. I think a sworn statement like that in a court like that says it all!!!!!
 
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