after 18 years of service i was terminated today

[want to retire]

ok. My understanding is he was directed to take a break at the building, he refused and went home instead.
I guess I am simple, but someone please explain to me how taking a break is unsafe or illegal?

I never said it was.........YOU said: "work as directed......then file"...............There are times when "working as directed" is and can be unsafe AND illegal. Happens quite a bit actually(Example: I was directed to pull an illegal trailer just a few weeks ago....). Clear? BTW........he was directed to take a break to show that he had one......mgt didn't care about how long or what the driver sacrificed to pull mgt's nuts out of the fire. See.......you sound like a 30 day wonder.....ever drive a pkg car? If you had you would understand not wanting to sit around the building, waiting for your "hour meal" to be over, punch out and go home. I never liked doing that. It just prolonged your time away from home and your family. It's mgt's and i.e.'s ineptitude that put the driver in this position. Simple.

 

[BlackCat]

Where in the contract does it say you HAVE to take a break (not talking lunch)? I am certain it says that they need to be provided, but where does it say you HAVE to take a break?

 

[tourists24]

Where in the contract does it say you HAVE to take a break (not talking lunch)? I am certain it says that they need to be provided, but where does it say you HAVE to take a break?

you dont HAVE to take a break, but the contract does say that you are to be paid for all time worked. If you are coding lunch/break time and not taking it then you are being dishonest. The company is required to pay you for that time.

 

[Bubblehead]

ok. My understanding is he was directed to take a break at the building, he refused and went home instead.
I guess I am simple, but someone please explain to me how taking a break is unsafe or illegal?

This is most certainly about an unpaid lunch break.
The period and time where he was to take his contractual lunch break had come and gone.
The company does not have the right to tell him to take his lunch break, after having worked 12+hrs, if he had not taken it during the prescribed contractual time frame.
By doing so they are entering into an extra-contractual agreement with the employee.
The company does have the right to give him a warning letter and enact progressive discipline for future infractions.
This is a joke and will amount to nothing in regards to the discharge.
It is designed to intimidate the driver and his peers.
What it will amount to, for the driver, is lo$t wage$.
He will get his job back with no back pay in due time.
How many days pay will it cost him???

In the end, the company, grievance panel or arbitrator will give him his job back.
I have no doubt.
I'm betting my money on him excepting an offer from the company to reduce the discharge to a suspension, time served at the local level hearing.
The hearing will probably be on Monday to put the driver on ice over the weekend.
It will consume him for 4 days and he wont think twice before excepting the deal.
Who could blame him?
It would be my advice to do just that.
In this case the company carries very little liability in the form of back pay.
So fortitude will only get him more time off.
Sad, but true.
Conversely, I'm not sure having the right to skip lunch is worth fighting for.

 

[BlackCat]

you dont HAVE to take a break, but the contract does say that you are to be paid for all time worked. If you are coding lunch/break time and not taking it then you are being dishonest. The company is required to pay you for that time.

Your break (again not lunch) supposedly is already built into your plan day. If he chooses to take it or not, its gone.

 

[tourists24]

Your break (again not lunch) supposedly is already built into your plan day. If he chooses to take it or not, its gone.

I see what you are saying... I was just responding as lunch break also since the OP was talking about 45 minutes. I am assuming that was lunch time. It is true that you are paid whether or not you take guarantee break time or not. If you do you should still be recording that in the board as many drivers have been fired for not putting break time in. I dont think the company would have made an issue of this if we werent talking lunch time....

 

[BlackCat]

I see what you are saying... I was just responding as lunch break also since the OP was talking about 45 minutes. I am assuming that was lunch time. It is true that you are paid whether or not you take guarantee break time or not. If you do you should still be recording that in the board as many drivers have been fired for not putting break time in. I dont think the company would have made an issue of this if we werent talking lunch time....

If someone is being fired for not entering a break then there are much deeper reasons for being terminated.

I still find it funny that this company loves nothing more then to terminate a driver over contract violations, but blatantly breaks the contract routinely without any regard. Pay out a few grievances?? Sure that will teach them. They should start terminating and suspending management for the same violations they hold us accountable for.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

2pm and truck full of businesses? lunch time. Just another intentional workload/dispatch problem perpetuated by those drivers who do not follow the contract.

 

[brownIEman]

I never said it was.........YOU said: "work as directed......then file"...............There are times when "working as directed" is and can be unsafe AND illegal. Happens quite a bit actually(Example: I was directed to pull an illegal trailer just a few weeks ago....). Clear? BTW........he was directed to take a break to show that he had one......mgt didn't care about how long or what the driver sacrificed to pull mgt's nuts out of the fire. See.......you sound like a 30 day wonder.....ever drive a pkg car? If you had you would understand not wanting to sit around the building, waiting for your "hour meal" to be over, punch out and go home. I never liked doing that. It just prolonged your time away from home and your family. It's mgt's and i.e.'s ineptitude that put the driver in this position. Simple.

I do absolutely understand the desire to be home with ones family. You do not understand the position of this drivers supervisor. He has told this driver more than once to take his lunch and code it in the board. I know this because I have been there, and I know there is no way it goes to termination on the first conversation, none. The driver would rather run through the day and skip lunch and be with his family. I get it, but the company has been sued for allowing drivers to do that very thing. This supervisors Division manager also knows that when lunches are taken throughout the division, overallowed goes down. His job has been threatened because he has too much overallowed. So, he mandates that everyone take a lunch, knowing it will bring overallowed down. The sup tells this driver "I am directing you to take a lunch". Driver essentially says, screw you, I want to see my family. I suppose the sup should have stood up to the Division Manager and gotten himself fired for insubordination. I am sure had he lost his job for standing up for this driver you and your brothers would have started a fund to help him support his family right?

Have I ever driven a package car? Yes. Have you ever run a Center? Traced several loops? Planed the dispatch for 70 or 80 drivers while making sure you make service and stay under cost? You want to call into question my knowledge of your job while pretending to be an expert at mine. That is simple. Wrong, but simple.

BTW, agree with you completely about the unsafe/illegal. It happens and it is wrong. That is however, not what this thread is about.

30 day wonder? Had you bothered to look at my join date, you can see I have been a member of this site for several years. I have been with UPS for more than 20.

 

[tourists24]

Yet no one ever seems to be fired for entering a lunch and continues to work through that lunch do they? At least Ive never heard of it. That is exactly when the safety element no longer matters. It does however bring the overallowed down also and all the reports look good

 

[BlackCat]

I do absolutely understand the desire to be home with ones family. You do not understand the position of this drivers supervisor. He has told this driver more than once to take his lunch and code it in the board. I know this because I have been there, and I know there is no way it goes to termination on the first conversation, none. The driver would rather run through the day and skip lunch and be with his family. I get it, but the company has been sued for allowing drivers to do that very thing. This supervisors Division manager also knows that when lunches are taken throughout the division, overallowed goes down. His job has been threatened because he has too much overallowed. So, he mandates that everyone take a lunch, knowing it will bring overallowed down. The sup tells this driver "I am directing you to take a lunch". Driver essentially says, screw you, I want to see my family. I suppose the sup should have stood up to the Division Manager and gotten himself fired for insubordination. I am sure had he lost his job for standing up for this driver you and your brothers would have started a fund to help him support his family right?

Have I ever driven a package car? Yes. Have you ever run a Center? Traced several loops? Planed the dispatch for 70 or 80 drivers while making sure you make service and stay under cost? You want to call into question my knowledge of your job while pretending to be an expert at mine. That is simple. Wrong, but simple.

BTW, agree with you completely about the unsafe/illegal. It happens and it is wrong. That is however, not what this thread is about.

30 day wonder? Had you bothered to look at my join date, you can see I have been a member of this site for several years. I have been with UPS for more than 20.

Says the division manager walking out at 16:00..

 

[Bubblehead]

I do absolutely understand the desire to be home with ones family. You do not understand the position of this drivers supervisor. He has told this driver more than once to take his lunch and code it in the board. I know this because I have been there, and I know there is no way it goes to termination on the first conversation, none. The driver would rather run through the day and skip lunch and be with his family. I get it, but the company has been sued for allowing drivers to do that very thing. This supervisors Division manager also knows that when lunches are taken throughout the division, overallowed goes down. His job has been threatened because he has too much overallowed. So, he mandates that everyone take a lunch, knowing it will bring overallowed down. The sup tells this driver "I am directing you to take a lunch". Driver essentially says, screw you, I want to see my family. I suppose the sup should have stood up to the Division Manager and gotten himself fired for insubordination. I am sure had he lost his job for standing up for this driver you and your brothers would have started a fund to help him support his family right?

Have I ever driven a package car? Yes. Have you ever run a Center? Traced several loops? Planed the dispatch for 70 or 80 drivers while making sure you make service and stay under cost? You want to call into question my knowledge of your job while pretending to be an expert at mine. That is simple. Wrong, but simple.

BTW, agree with you completely about the unsafe/illegal. It happens and it is wrong. That is however, not what this thread is about.

30 day wonder? Had you bothered to look at my join date, you can see I have been a member of this site for several years. I have been with UPS for more than 20.

Perhaps a second lawsuit should be filed for the company mandating we take and record a lunch, but only monitor whether we enter it in the DIAD, while turning a blind eye to those who enter a lunch and work through it?
It happens a lot.
I don't see it as much different than the original lawsuit.
With all of the technology available to center manager's now, are you telling me they can't query a report as to whether a driver worked during their coded lunch?
You hit the nail on the head, it's about the center manager trying to steal time from the driver.
There is no other rational explanation as to why it would reduce over allowed.
How is else would making a driver "take lunch" reduce over allowed?
I see it every day and read it between the lines in the above quoted post, the numbers expected of front line managers are unattainable without cheating.
All this culture is capable of sustaining is additional lies, half truths and cheats.

 

[Omega man]

I appreciate that you do not like that particular part of the contract, but work as directed is in the contract.

Negative, unless a Supplement has such language.

Where in the contract does it say you HAVE to take a break (not talking lunch)? I am certain it says that they need to be provided, but where does it say you HAVE to take a break?

Lunch language is in our Supplements. Many that I have read require drivers to take it and within a window of time.

Soon the D.O.T. regulations will require drivers to take at least a half hour lunch sometime within the first 8 hours worked. Failure to do so would subject the driver and the company to liability in case of serious harm done to others in an accident.

 

[brownIEman]

Perhaps a second lawsuit should be filed for the company mandating we take and record a lunch, but only monitor whether we enter it in the DIAD, while turning a blind eye to those who enter a lunch and work through it?

That lawsuit was already filed and lost by UPS in CA, and that is what I was referring to. I believe for several years boards there were set to shut down and not allow any deliveries during the specified lunch period.

It happens a lot.
I don't see it as much different than the original lawsuit.
With all of the technology available to center manager's now, are you telling me they can't query a report as to whether a driver worked during their coded lunch?

Yes I am telling you there is not a report they can query to tell whether a driver worked during the coded lunch. They could compare two different reports, the drivers time cards to see when lunch was coded and his delivery records to see when work was done. This would only take about 3-5 Minutes per driver to pull up and review. So for a 60 route center it would only require the center manager to spend an extra 3-5 hours every day away from his family to baby sit grown men and make sure they are doing what they have agreed to do.

You hit the nail on the head, it's about the center manager trying to steal time from the driver.
There is no other rational explanation as to why it would reduce over allowed.
How is else would making a driver "take lunch" reduce over allowed?
I see it every day and read it between the lines in the above quoted post, the numbers expected of front line managers are unattainable without cheating.
All this culture is capable of sustaining is additional lies, half truths and cheats.

You are almost correct. Most of the over allowed reduction comes from those drivers who chose to work through their lunch to get home. They chose to give that time back. It is wrong and they should not do it, but they are grown men and if they chose to give that time to the center manager, it is really a stretch to call it stealing.
On the other side of the coin, even in situations where the management team is ordered to babysit and make sure everyone not only codes the lunch but does not work during it, guess what? The over allowed still goes down. Not by as much, but it does. So is this because with the prospect of a later return home time, some drivers become runners and work unsafe, or because some drivers who normally don't really move at a brisk pace per the methods start to do so and thereby steal less time from the company?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

brownIEman---Telematics will show if there is any activity during the break/meal times input by the driver in the DIAD.

 

[brownIEman]

Says the division manager walking out at 16:00..

I am no fan of most division managers. Most I have dealt with were miserable jack holes. However, I can't think of any that work less than 11-12 hour days as an average. A dm leaving at 16:00 usually came to work at 4:00 am or earlier. I can think of many valid criticisms of division managers but this one is just ignorant of what they typically do.

 

[brownIEman]

brownIEman---Telematics will show if there is any activity during the break/meal times input by the driver in the DIAD.

in my experience, pulling up the time cards would be faster. Telematics leaves much to be desired in responsiveness.

 

[tourists24]

That lawsuit was already filed and lost by UPS in CA, and that is what I was referring to. I believe for several years boards there were set to shut down and not allow any deliveries during the specified lunch period.



Yes I am telling you there is not a report they can query to tell whether a driver worked during the coded lunch. They could compare two different reports, the drivers time cards to see when lunch was coded and his delivery records to see when work was done. This would only take about 3-5 Minutes per driver to pull up and review. So for a 60 route center it would only require the center manager to spend an extra 3-5 hours every day away from his family to baby sit grown men and make sure they are doing what they have agreed to do.



You are almost correct. Most of the over allowed reduction comes from those drivers who chose to work through their lunch to get home. They chose to give that time back. It is wrong and they should not do it, but they are grown men and if they chose to give that time to the center manager, it is really a stretch to call it stealing.
On the other side of the coin, even in situations where the management team is ordered to babysit and make sure everyone not only codes the lunch but does not work during it, guess what? The over allowed still goes down. Not by as much, but it does. So is this because with the prospect of a later return home time, some drivers become runners and work unsafe, or because some drivers who normally don't really move at a brisk pace per the methods start to do so and thereby steal less time from the company?

I find it a little ironic that you are implying that mgt shouldnt need to babysit to see whether or not a driver is actually working through the very lunch he is ordered to take; yet virtually everything else a driver does during their day is monitored and babysat. And lord help if there is anything that makes a report look bad

 

[brownIEman]

WTR is explaining how there are situations in which a worker may refuse to work as directed. Situations where it is unsafe, illegal, or immoral. It was in reply to your general use of the "work as directed".

OK, but I was not using work as directed in a general sense. I was using it in the context of a thread specifically about a driver fired for refusing to take a lunch when he was directed to do so. I have no disagreement with refusing to perform unsafe or illegal acts. None.

 

[brownIEman]

I find it a little ironic that you are implying that mgt shouldnt need to babysit to see whether or not a driver is actually working through the very lunch he is ordered to take; yet virtually everything else a driver does during their day is monitored and babysat. And lord help if there is anything that makes a report look bad

This is simply wrong. There are many things a driver does that show up on one of hundreds of reports, however I do not and most mgt do not have the time to go over all of these reports with a fine tooth comb every day. There are thousands of things a driver does each and every day that are not monitored nor babysat.