I A M penison out of money

[rod]

I'm pretty sure both the law and the contract would stop the company from shutting down the pensions. How well the funds are managed is a different story. I'm just saying that if (huge if) the union were ever to bargain away from the pension plan, for whatever reason, they should only do so if the company pays us the same amount for our individual retirement accounts as they were for the pension.

What law? There is plenty of examples of pensions being shut down and as far as the contract goes--the only way you could fight it would be to go on strike----and we know in this day and age the majority of UPS'ers won't do that.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

What law? There is plenty of examples of pensions being shut down and as far as the contract goes--the only way you could fight it would be to go on strike----and we know in this day and age the majority of UPS'ers won't do that.

What pensions have been shut down as a result of a company that is contractually obligated to pay into it suddenly deciding not to?

As for what law, a little something called the ERISA:

Pension

"The legislation also requires employers to adequately fund the program and establishes fiduciary responsibilities that must be adhered to. ERISA also establishes the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation to insure defined benefits plans. (PBGC). Employers must pay premiums so that their plans are covered by the PBGC. The termination of plans is also extensively regulated."

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

What pensions have been shut down as a result of a company that is contractually obligated to pay into it suddenly deciding not to?

As for what law, a little something called the ERISA:

Pension

"The legislation also requires employers to adequately fund the program and establishes fiduciary responsibilities that must be adhered to. ERISA also establishes the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation to insure defined benefits plans. (PBGC). Employers must pay premiums so that their plans are covered by the PBGC. The termination of plans is also extensively regulated."

Just in our (NYS Teamsters) pension plan we have had several major companies who have opted to pay their withdrawal liability and move their employees in to 401k's.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Just in our (NYS Teamsters) pension plan we have had several major companies who have opted to pay their withdrawal liability and move their employees in to 401k's.

This was what I was responding to.

There in lies the problem. If the company wanted to shut down the pension tomorrow nothing could stop them.

The company could not "shut down" the pension with impunity. They could potentially stop paying into it, but that is governed by their contract with the Teamsters and by the ERISA. I'm not saying that it can't happen, I am saying the company couldn't just shut down the pension tomorrow. They would have to demonstrate a pretty severe need to stop paying into the pension just to get the Teamsters to talk about it before the next contract negotiations.

If UPS brought up switching to individual retirement accounts as a point of negotiations for the next contract, and if the union were to go for it, they shouldn't let the company pay into our individual accounts less than they pay into the pension.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

There is no way that the Union would go for it-----pensions are their cash cows----but, yes, UP would have to contribute an equal amount in to our 401k's.

 

[brownmonster]

But those Cheerios (contrary to popular belief) taste terrible when you put beer on them.

Beer is for wheaties.

 

[Method Mensch]

That is one reason. Another is that the math never works. At some point there will be more people drawing from it than contributing to it and the slow death begins. UPS will cry to the courts that it cannot afford to prop up a pension anymore and will file bankruptcy to get out from under the obligation. The courts allowed the airlines to do it and will allow UPS to do it.

The only reason the math does not work is that scumbag corporations pay scumbag accountants and scumbag finance guys to engineer bankruptcy that unnecessarily screws the workers out of the pensions. This was widespread in airline industry, where the margins are normally pretty thin to begin with. Frontline ran a great report on this:

Changing World - Exploring The New Corporate Bankruptcy Strategy | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[I have been lurking]

What would you dunk your oreos in?

 

[Foamer Pyle]

No fund should have 30 and out at any age. 48-50 is to young for people to draw on a fund. Life expectancy into the upper 70’s, you are looking at paying someone for over 30 years. We had 25 and out starting in1994. Ruined the fund..

Do you really think that many people will make it to 30 years with the current weight, and size limit? I think UPS has made this job almost impossible to go 30 years, for a person starting out now.

 

[Foamer Pyle]

Add up how much you need to save for a lifetime payout of $5000 a month. It's a lot more than 5 percent match.

Who gets $5000 a month? That is ridiculous.

 

[Jones]

Who gets $5000 a month? That is ridiculous.

You need to raise your expectations.

 

[Wally]

Who gets $5000 a month? That is ridiculous.

Say what? Too much or little?

 

[SmithBarney]

You realize it is all the same milk don't you?

Oh it's not, trust me.

 

[Maple Grove MN Driver]

Oh it's not, trust me.

It is trust me.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

There is no way that the Union would go for it-----pensions are their cash cows----but, yes, UP would have to contribute an equal amount in to our 401k's.

I think that you mean UPS is is their cash cow to fund their mismanaged pension plans.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I think that you mean UPS is is their cash cow to fund their mismanaged pension plans.

And UPS knows it.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

I think that you mean UPS is is their cash cow to fund their mismanaged pension plans.

76%?

 

[finaddict]

The union is looking into consolidating the funded plans with the failing ones. Its only fair. Some funds planned on $60k or more a year in pension. Any Brother wouldn't want another brother who is expecting $5000 a month at 55 years old with 30 years service to take a reduction. We should all work a little longer, take a reduction and make sure these brothers drink craft brew thru their 35-40 years of retirement. I was only expecting/hoping for $2500 a month with 30 years at age 64 in my plan, so I can work a few years longer or take a little less to spread the wealth and make sure they get what they deserve! Perhaps we should strike nationwide next time around to DEMAND UPS puts 15-20 billion into our multi employer plans. Its only fair. The stingy bastards are only contributing $580 a week per FT employee at my local for pension benefits. Add that to my wages for 55hr weeks and H&W benefit contributions and I barely scratch $165K a year.

 

[Jones]

The union is looking into consolidating the funded plans with the failing ones. Its only fair. Some funds planned on $60k or more a year in pension. Any Brother wouldn't want another brother who is expecting $5000 a month at 55 years old with 30 years service to take a reduction. We should all work a little longer, take a reduction and make sure these brothers drink craft brew thru their 35-40 years of retirement. I was only expecting/hoping for $2500 a month with 30 years at age 64 in my plan, so I can work a few years longer or take a little less to spread the wealth and make sure they get what they deserve! Perhaps we should strike nationwide next time around to DEMAND UPS puts 15-20 billion into our multi employer plans. Its only fair. The stingy bastards are only contributing $580 a week per FT employee at my local for pension benefits. Add that to my wages for 55hr weeks and H&W benefit contributions and I barely scratch $165K a year.

That's the spirit!

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

The union is looking into consolidating the funded plans with the failing ones. Its only fair. Some funds planned on $60k or more a year in pension. Any Brother wouldn't want another brother who is expecting $5000 a month at 55 years old with 30 years service to take a reduction. We should all work a little longer, take a reduction and make sure these brothers drink craft brew thru their 35-40 years of retirement. I was only expecting/hoping for $2500 a month with 30 years at age 64 in my plan, so I can work a few years longer or take a little less to spread the wealth and make sure they get what they deserve! Perhaps we should strike nationwide next time around to DEMAND UPS puts 15-20 billion into our multi employer plans. Its only fair. The stingy bastards are only contributing $580 a week per FT employee at my local for pension benefits. Add that to my wages for 55hr weeks and H&W benefit contributions and I barely scratch $165K a year.

And what about the pension plans that people fave up some of their raises? Should they take a cut so you can get more also?