Public sector workers get paid for their services just like you and I. Their employer is the state or local or the federal govt. Yes, it comes from our tax money. But they too pay taxes. So they should have less rights than us?? It is still an employee/employer relationship. Tell me how does this fact "take tax money from many middle class hard working tax payers and help destroy the majority of the benefits..." ?? Allowing public servants to have a decent standard of living is "shrinking the middle class"?? That public servant spends that $$ in the community, in the state to make the economy hum. What is your problem??
Is anyone following Wisconsin?
- Thread starter hubrat
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Public sector workers get paid for their services just like you and I. Their employer is the state or local or the federal govt. Yes, it comes from our tax money. But they too pay taxes. So they should have less rights than us?? It is still an employee/employer relationship. Tell me how does this fact "take tax money from many middle class hard working tax payers and help destroy the majority of the benefits..." ?? Allowing public servants to have a decent standard of living is "shrinking the middle class"?? That public servant spends that $$ in the community, in the state to make the economy hum. What is your problem??
packageguy
Well-Known Member
You are right,
Buddybrown
Well-Known Member
Public servants don't work for greedy Corporations now do they? Corporations will go out of business if they're not competitive, government will just get sicker raise taxes hurting other people or just add to the out of control debt. Public employees work for elected officials who represent the PEOPLE! If public employees don't like the wages, benefits and working conditions being offered to them then they shouldn’t be public employees. They can have a fine standard of living without all of the collective bargaining.Public sector workers get paid for their services just like you and I. Their employer is the state or local or the federal govt. Yes, it comes from our tax money. But they too pay taxes. So they should have less rights than us?? It is still an employee/employer relationship. Tell me how does this fact "take tax money from many middle class hard working tax payers and help destroy the majority of the benefits...?? Allowing public servants to have a decent standard of living is "shrinking the middle class"?? That public servant spends that $$ in the community, in the state to make the economy hum. What is your problem??
All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public-personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people. -FDR- A liberal president no less.Buddybrown
Well-Known Member
Dude, the people spoke in November when the Governor of Wisconsin was elected! It was no secret that he was going to do what the taxpayers of Wisconsin put him there to do!
island1fox
Well-Known Member
For anyone who truly cares about the Education of our young the documentary "Waiting for Superman" is a must.
Any American that watches this film and is still proud of public sector unions --so be it.
Just imagine any UPS worker that after two years recieves "TENOR" -which means it is inpossible to get rid of anyone for any reason ---UPS would not exist for too long.
One example is in NY with over 600 UNION school teachers who have either been dishonest, child molestors, child abusers, excessive absentee or lateness problems or just refuse to teach are placed into a NY "rubber room" . These people who cannot be disciplined collect full pay and benefits while reading newspapers, playing games or just picking their noses. The cost to the NYC taxpayer for the "rubber room" is over 100 million dollars per year.
Something for sane people to object to --Kool aid "whatever the union does or gets is o/k"people -the real shame is on YOU !!!
As a Union supporter how can you possibly justify this ??? Correction -as a human being how can you condone this ????
Any American that watches this film and is still proud of public sector unions --so be it.
Just imagine any UPS worker that after two years recieves "TENOR" -which means it is inpossible to get rid of anyone for any reason ---UPS would not exist for too long.
One example is in NY with over 600 UNION school teachers who have either been dishonest, child molestors, child abusers, excessive absentee or lateness problems or just refuse to teach are placed into a NY "rubber room" . These people who cannot be disciplined collect full pay and benefits while reading newspapers, playing games or just picking their noses. The cost to the NYC taxpayer for the "rubber room" is over 100 million dollars per year.
Something for sane people to object to --Kool aid "whatever the union does or gets is o/k"people -the real shame is on YOU !!!
As a Union supporter how can you possibly justify this ??? Correction -as a human being how can you condone this ????
island1fox
Well-Known Member
moreluck,
It is a very long documentary, close to two hours. A little slow in the beginning , but if you watch it --follow each of the families and children involved-it will break your heart.
I did not hear when "tenor" started but it was one of the major facts that were discussed in detail.
Again, although depressing I hope all sides get to view. Facts are facts and it makes me believe that something has to be done soon-the future of this country depends on it !!!!
The doc did state that "tenor" was originally meant for only College Professors to protect them from any Political witch hunts. I would also question that.
island1fox
Well-Known Member
Klein,
I would think that many people would be happy that you did not have "tenor" at UPS !!!
Laugh, no offense meant. Just trying to make myself smile !!!
I would think that many people would be happy that you did not have "tenor" at UPS !!!
Laugh, no offense meant. Just trying to make myself smile !!!
curiousbrain
Well-Known Member
This is part of what TearsInRain and myself touched on the other day.
I would argue that the reality of today (i.e. anyone can publish information, the wide availability of said information, etc) is that facts are, indeed, not facts.
One need look no further than when someone says "Reagan raised the debt level" - there are people who would argue that point. Another example might be that Bill Clinton was the one who helped the economy - others would say that it was him riding the Reagan policies in their twilight years. Yet another example is Bush's tax cuts - did they help or hurt the economy?
Regardless of ones position on these specific issues, I would argue that one of the problems any informed voter faces today is how to differentiate between different "fact sets" (not in the academic sense, either).
As to the tenure issue, I can speak from past and present/current experience that when certain professors achieve tenure, they have much more freedom to shape their curriculum; before tenure, they are a slave to what the government/state/whatever dictates to them. So, initially at least, tenure was a way to prevent what many of us so despise these days - the state dictating what should and should not be learned.
klein
Für Meno :)
Klein,
I would think that many people would be happy that you did not have "tenor" at UPS !!!
Laugh, no offense meant. Just trying to make myself smile !!!
Tenor doesn't exist in socialized Canada, sorry.
Any one, any day can be fired here at anytime.
curiousbrain
Well-Known Member
I would argue that that is a gross over generalization of the state of tenure; in certain areas, sure - but that does not take into the account of the professors who want to help their students by making the best curriculum possible. Without tenure, they cannot do that without running the risk of being fired/disciplined/etc.
I cannot speak to whether most professors take one view or the other, however.
Public servants don't work for greedy Corporations now do they? Corporations will go out of business if they're not competitive, government will just get sicker raise taxes hurting other people or just add to the out of control debt. Public employees work for elected officials who represent the PEOPLE! If public employees don't like the wages, benefits and working conditions being offered to them then they shouldn’t be public employees. They can have a fine standard of living without all of the collective bargaining.
All working people should have the right to bargain colectively with their employer. Period!! The answer is not for governments to raise taxes. The answer is to stop defunding the government from working properly. Conservatives get control of government and try to make sure government doesn't work right. Because when government works right, their corporate masters are regulated more and taxed more. Governments both federal and state are running deficits because corporations like GE pay no federal taxes.
Again, these republican governors are not trying to save any $$ here. It has already been exposed how they intend to weaken, if not destroy unions in this country because they are the only entities which actually fight back against the corporate piracy that has been going on.
Furthermore, public servants do not work for elected officials. They work for we the people. And all they want is a fair and decent salary as well as a fair and decent pension and health care benefits. That is something we all should have. It should be a given in our society. Unfortunately, our government at every level is controlled by the greed-heads who make us all live with the rapacious ways of the "market" while corporate America lives on state socialism for the few!
klein
Für Meno :)
All I can say is this is totally unbelievable ! These right wingers on here, are pushing for non uinon government workers (includes post office, I imagine).. So you want the letter carrier to become non union, earn less wages, on on the other hand, you're fighting for Fedex to get unionized !
Go ahead, make the post office earn even less, take away thier weight limititations, too.
Maybe the postoffice then can take tons of business away from UPS, and lay some of you folks off ?
Go ahead, make the post office earn even less, take away thier weight limititations, too.
Maybe the postoffice then can take tons of business away from UPS, and lay some of you folks off ?
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brownmonster
Man of Great Wisdom
Public servants don't work for greedy Corporations now do they? Corporations will go out of business if they're not competitive, government will just get sicker raise taxes hurting other people or just add to the out of control debt. Public employees work for elected officials who represent the PEOPLE! If public employees don't like the wages, benefits and working conditions being offered to them then they shouldn’t be public employees. They can have a fine standard of living without all of the collective bargaining.
Blind
That movie you recommended is very selective and unfair to all the good teachers out there. They chose to highlight a bad teacher and the "rubber room" in NYC but not any good teachers or successful public schools . It was very unbalanced and too supportive of the charter school movement. Yes, there are bad teachers just as there are bad lawyers, cops and UPS drivers and sups. That is just society in general. We all had a few bad teachers along the way. But that movie tries to blame tenure as the villain, as though tenure means a job for life. It doesn't. There is due process for teachers who dont meet certain standards and they are dismissed. But this attack on tenure is just a back door attack on union workers' rights in another form. Typical for some people on this forum.
island1fox
Well-Known Member
You obviously have not viewed the entire documentary.
Buddybrown
Well-Known Member
Sounds serious. Actually FDR had ailments but I don't think being blind was one of them.
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