listen up UPS, Teamster we are people!!!

Catatonic

Nine Lives
I find this thread interesting and amusing.
This beleaguered fellow who is complaining about his workload for the pay as compared to drivers is basically getting slammed by drivers who do the same type of complaining about their jobs.
Pretty much everyone I know complains about the demands of their job ... it's always something.
 

brownmonster

Man of Great Wisdom
Go get a job at the Golden Arches Supper Club part time and then call Ronald MacDonald and complain that you can't live on minimum wage. If you want a full time job, get a full time job. Why do so many UPS part timers think they should live like kings?
 

CAFAL

Well-Known Member
I've got the answer for all your problems. Belt supervisor! No more union ignoring you,no more boxes in your way in an emergency, and they make more dough and work less. I think you would be perfect.
 

brown_trousers

Well-Known Member
I find this thread interesting and amusing.
This beleaguered fellow who is complaining about his workload for the pay as compared to drivers is basically getting slammed by drivers who do the same type of complaining about their jobs.
Pretty much everyone I know complains about the demands of their job ... it's always something.

The real reason we can't take this guy seriously is that he is a brand new hire. I've seen it before many times, a guy is hired to UPS loading/unloading, and then is already complaining about the job on the first day. Can you really take a guy like this seriously??
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
Go get a job at the Golden Arches Supper Club part time and then call Ronald MacDonald and complain that you can't live on minimum wage. If you want a full time job, get a full time job. Why do so many UPS part timers think they should live like kings?
Not justifying the OP's whinefest, but some of the complaints are valid. Last person in my building to go into package had 19 years.. and he was already a 22.3 combo. The company simply isn't giving PT'ers the opportunity to go FT right now.
 

beentheredonethat

Well-Known Member
Not justifying the OP's whinefest, but some of the complaints are valid. Last person in my building to go into package had 19 years.. and he was already a 22.3 combo. The company simply isn't giving PT'ers the opportunity to go FT right now.

You don't think the largest reason that there aren't more PT to FT conversions is the $42 billion in revenue a non union company (FDX) pulled in the last fiscal year? We are competing against a non union company that pays it's delivery workforce far less then what we pay our drivers.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
You don't think the largest reason that there aren't more PT to FT conversions is the $42 billion in revenue a non union company (FDX) pulled in the last fiscal year? We are competing against a non union company that pays it's delivery workforce far less then what we pay our drivers.

Do I hear two-tiered wage system for new FT drivers in 2013?
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
You don't think the largest reason that there aren't more PT to FT conversions is the $42 billion in revenue a non union company (FDX) pulled in the last fiscal year? We are competing against a non union company that pays it's delivery workforce far less then what we pay our drivers.
UPS pulled in $53.1 billion in revenue in 2011. I don't see the point you're trying to make.
 

959Nanook

Well-Known Member
You don't think the largest reason that there aren't more PT to FT conversions is the $42 billion in revenue a non union company (FDX) pulled in the last fiscal year? We are competing against a non union company that pays it's delivery workforce far less then what we pay our drivers.

Do I hear two-tiered wage system for new FT drivers in 2013?

I hope not... there will be more PT to FT as the worst of the managers go on a rampage of progressive discipline against the honest Teamsters (runners and gunners have a shot initially but even they grow older in due time).

What supervisors/managers do you think will get promoted if drivers have a two-tier wage scale? I don't think it will be the ones who can't bring themselves to be zealous about cutting labor costs with terminations. Your best prayer for weathering that storm if it comes to pass will be an OCS and center manager who are in terminal positions and not looking for promotions.

You think there is animosity now between drivers and part timers (not in all cases obviously but this thread is just one example). There will be animosity in the full time driver ranks if there is a two-tiered wage scale and rightfully so. Top scale drivers need to man up and advocate a wage cut or wage freeze if we feel we are paid too much.

It is isn't anything personal against you but you are one of (if not) the loudest top-scale Teamster voices in BC forums for a two-tier wage scale. My personal opinion (not worth anything except a voice and a vote) is that this is the selfish and cowardly position to take for drivers in our position. So, as another top scale driver, I am going to say that I think it is more selfless and courageous to advocate for a wage cut or wage freeze (as appropriate) if you feel top scale drivers are paid too high of a wage.

As for myself, I will NOT vote for a two-tier wage scale and will advocate for a wage cut or wage freeze (as appropriate) if the first offer has a two-tier wage scale. I could be persuaded to vote for a longer progression (no more than 5 years and not that many out of the gate) but I will not budge on a "No" vote for two-tier wage scale.

If the IBT recommends a "Yes" vote on a two-tier wage scale in an Early Vote than they are acknowledging that drivers wages are an issue (or they feel it is the best offer they can negotiate). Don't let the issue shoot the next guy through the door in the leg. Take a hit and solve the problem. We stand on the foundation poured by my father and the Teamsters before us. I'm not screwing my son and the Teamsters after us.

Then again, I am of the mind that part time wages along with health/welfare and pension contributions are a bigger concern than any wage increases for drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if the Company and IBT are of similar thinking except IBT knows who butters their bread and both of them know wage increases are the sugar that helps the medicine go down. Honestly, I don't see why top-scale drivers need anything more than COLA adjustments in most cases to begin with.

I understand the sentiment about it being a "part time" job. The pay needs to keep pace in my opinion with the larger labor market. Perhaps not in all labor markets but you can easily find employment and get hired at a better wage and benefit compensation package in the community where my Center is located. It was mentioned that today's new hire does not have as good of prospects for making full-time as many of us had when we started in most parts of the Company so that doesn't hold the same water it did even during the last negotiation (probably given as justification for taking benefits from part-timers). If not a wage increase, part timers should get some kind of COLA adjustments both for geography (as drivers already have) and over time as cost-of-living increase sor decreases. I do feel that the one year wait for insurance (coupled with the starting wage) does not have the best HR ramifications for staffing PT (or FT positions in the long run) but that isn't really my lane. To me, it is indicative of bigger problems in IBT and organized labor as a whole. I don't know details as it was before my time (I was in the military) but my understanding is that the '97 strike was due in part to injustices for part time employees of the Company.
 

PiedmontSteward

RTW-4-Less
I hope not... there will be more PT to FT as the worst of the managers go on a rampage of progressive discipline against the honest Teamsters (runners and gunners have a shot initially but even they grow older in due time). What supervisors/managers do you think will get promoted if drivers have a two-tier wage scale? I don't think it will be the ones who can't bring themselves to be zealous about cutting labor costs with terminations. Your best prayer for weathering that storm if it comes to pass will be an OCS and center manager who are in terminal positions and not looking for promotions. You think there is animosity now between drivers and part timers (not in all cases obviously but this thread is just one example). There will be animosity in the full time driver ranks if there is a two-tiered wage scale and rightfully so. Top scale drivers need to man up and advocate a wage cut or wage freeze if we feel we are paid too much. It is isn't anything personal against you but you are one of (if not) the loudest top-scale Teamster voices in BC forums for a two-tier wage scale. My personal opinion (not worth anything except a voice and a vote) is that this is the selfish and cowardly position to take for drivers in our position. So, as another top scale driver, I am going to say that I think it is more selfless and courageous to advocate for a wage cut or wage freeze (as appropriate) if you feel top scale drivers are paid too high of a wage. As for myself, I will NOT vote for a two-tier wage scale and will advocate for a wage cut or wage freeze (as appropriate) if the first offer has a two-tier wage scale. I could be persuaded to vote for a longer progression (no more than 5 years and not that many out of the gate) but I will not budge on a "No" vote for two-tier wage scale. If the IBT recommends a "Yes" vote on a two-tier wage scale in an Early Vote than they are acknowledging that drivers wages are an issue (or they feel it is the best offer they can negotiate). Don't let the issue shoot the next guy through the door in the leg. Take a hit and solve the problem. We stand on the foundation poured by my father and the Teamsters before us. I'm not screwing my son and the Teamsters after us. Then again, I am of the mind that part time wages along with health/welfare and pension contributions are a bigger concern than any wage increases for drivers. I wouldn't be surprised if the Company and IBT are of similar thinking except IBT knows who butters their bread and both of them know wage increases are the sugar that helps the medicine go down. Honestly, I don't see why top-scale drivers need anything more than COLA adjustments in most cases to begin with. I understand the sentiment about it being a "part time" job. The pay needs to keep pace in my opinion with the larger labor market. Perhaps not in all labor markets but you can easily find employment and get hired at a better wage and benefit compensation package in the community where my Center is located. It was mentioned that today's new hire does not have as good of prospects for making full-time as many of us had when we started in most parts of the Company so that doesn't hold the same water it did even during the last negotiation (probably given as justification for taking benefits from part-timers). If not a wage increase, part timers should get some kind of COLA adjustments both for geography (as drivers already have) and over time as cost-of-living increase sor decreases. I do feel that the one year wait for insurance (coupled with the starting wage) does not have the best HR ramifications for staffing PT (or FT positions in the long run) but that isn't really my lane. To me, it is indicative of bigger problems in IBT and organized labor as a whole. I don't know details as it was before my time (I was in the military) but my understanding is that the '97 strike was due in part to injustices for part time employees of the Company.
I've heard a lot of perceived animosity between PT'ers and drivers and, quite frankly, most drivers acknowledge how ridiculous it is that it takes so long to go full-time. And most PT'ers that know about the situations drivers face also sympathize. At my local's contract proposal meeting, myself (a PT'er) and the drivers were making many of the same contract proposals (items related to the 9.5 list and schedules for 22.3 job creation). Most (not all) drivers want to be relieved of excessive OT and recognize the only way to do it is to create more routes. I respect most of the drivers that have come before me - especially the guys that weathered the '97 strike. Solidarity is more than a slogan, unless you're Upstate. Then that translates into "Solidarity, as long as I gets mine!" **** two-tier wage scales.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
...or could it be Upstate likes to look at a situation from a realistic point of view and in his opinion we need to address the wage disparity with Ground in order to remain competitive in the long term...
 

brown_trousers

Well-Known Member
IF you agree to that than you saying that we make too much money...
wages are just too subjective of a topic. One person says we make too much, another says we make too little, another compares our wages to fedex, while another compares our wages to the level of hard work we do. We might as well argue over which soda tastes best, pepsi vs coke, its just too subjective!

Not that any of that matters right now, as wage cuts are most definitely not needed. We are showing record profits every year. If you were to graph those profits, Our profit trend would be a line moving up, up, and up. We are not even close to that line leveling out, nonetheless moving downward.

Our union contracts are rather short term at only 4 years, so even if UPS fell on hard times at a later point in time, they could just factor that into the next wage negotiations in 2017. But for right now, we should be pushing for growth in our union contract that reflects growth in our profit margins.
 

UPSGUY72

Well-Known Member
...or could it be Upstate likes to look at a situation from a realistic point of view and in his opinion we need to address the wage disparity with Ground in order to remain competitive in the long term...

Nope... Stop beating around the bush... Anyways you say it your saying we make to much money.....
 

959Nanook

Well-Known Member
Then say it! A vote for a two-tier wage scale by a top-scale driver is saying that they make too much as a top-scale driver (why else would you vote for a lesser wage if you felt it was just right or not enough) AND they don't feel they owe anything to the Teamsters that follow them as they reap the benefits of the sacrifices of the Teamsters who preceded them.

The reasons that you feel we make too much (inability to compete in the labor market with non-union drivers, we are actually compensated too much for our lack of skill and licensing requirements, or some other reason) are less important than the choice made to address it when you you advocate for or vote for a two-tier wage scale.

I take no issue with the logic you have offered in the BC forums (as I understand it) for considering whether or not regular full-time Package Driver wages should be addressed. I take issue with the half-hearted acknowledgement represented by advocating for a two-tier wage scale (or voting for it) that will make little waves with your peers and punish anyone that follows you because they don't all have a voice or a vote.

I will say it. I think top-scale Package Drivers wages are generally too high (I am sure there are exceptions to the general rule). The consequences include (but are not limited to) that there is a widely perceived injustice between us and other UPS Teamsters who have not received wage increases at a commensurate pace, overtime is relatively cheap compared to hiring additional part-timers as full-time drivers for additional routes and it has become a beast that eats its own tail, and Package Drivers have come to expect overtime and wage increases so they are living their lives accordingly and becoming increasingly willing to let the rest of the Teamsters suffer for their own benefit (e.g. advocate FOR a two-tier wage scale BEFORE negotiations when the injustice between PT and FT is raised rather than addressing the problem).
 
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