Pilots - Here we go!

racerx

Member
UPS Pilots To Seek Release From Talks If No Pact Reached

November 17, 2005: 12:42 a.m. EST

ATLANTA (AP)--The union representing UPS Inc.'s (UPS) pilots said Thursday it will ask a federal mediator to release it from negotiations with the company if the two sides can't reach an agreement on a new contract by next month.
If released from mediation, a 30-day cooling off period would follow, after which the Independent Pilots Association believes it would be entitled to strike. Asked if the union would strike if given the opportunity, IPA president Tom Nicholson told The Association Press, "It's our full intention to conduct a strike at UPS."

Nicholson said the union will tell the company that it must offer a contract that it can bring to its members for ratification by the end of the next mediated session on Dec. 23. If that doesn't happen, Nicholson said the union will ask to be released from the talks.

UPS spokesman Norm Black said the Atlanta-based company still hopes to reach an agreement with its pilots. He also noted that under the Railway Labor Act, the pilots can't strike while under the direction of the National Mediation Board.

Black said the board has given no indication it would release the sides from mediation if asked.

"We don't respond to ultimatums," Black said. "These talks are under the direct control of the federal mediator. We respond to the direction of the mediator. We're prepared to keep negotiating to get a good contract for our pilots no matter how long it takes. Period."

The company and its pilot union are grappling over pay, pensions, work rules and health benefits, among other things. According to UPS, its pilots make an average annual salary of more than $175,000.

The union argues that unlike the passenger airlines awash in red ink, UPS - the world's largest shipping carrier - is highly profitable and therefore has the means to further reward its pilots. UPS says it plans to give more to its 2, 483 pilots, but needs to make sure the contract it agrees to keeps it competitive.

UPS and its pilots have been in federal mediated talks since June 2004. Its pilots contract became amendable on Dec. 31, 2003, and has remained unchanged since then.
 

ok2bclever

I Re Member
racerx,

susie's response to your request was civil, albeit coy at the best, ignorant at the worst and as usual she is her own worst enemy.

While I was disappointed with the smallness she showed with that response as it's not like it requires CIA training to locate the pilot's site and to date I am unaware of anything offensive you have said on this forum to her or any one (until now), that doesn't excuse your flaming her.

It has been repeatedly stated here that action is not to be tolerated and you diminish yourself doing so.

If you don't like her posts or her answers put her on ignore, but don't stoop to unseemly name calling.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
ok2bc,
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with any thing here but I was thinking about this and just thought I'd share it with you. I once had an ole' dog who I thought very much of. Sure, he was bad about biting other people but he was always good to me. Never showed me anything but gentleness and loyality and like I said, in my eyes he was a very good dog. But one day he turned and bit me too.

I know this has nothing to do with any discussion here but I thought you might be a dog lover like myself and just maybe find something of future value there.

If I don't get a chance to say, enjoy the Thanksgiving Holidays with your family and that goes for all the rest of you here as well. We may agree or disagree but you're all a swell bag of apples in my book!
 

racerx

Member
Ok2, you are right. I did not mean to stoop to name calling. I apologize to you and anyone else on here that I might have offended.

As a side note, I did not know about the ignore feature until you mentioned it. I will use that from now on.
 

susiedriver

Well-Known Member
racerx,

If I'm not on ignore, I would like to address my calling the pilots 'our' pilots.
As a shareholder I am entitled to refer to them as 'our' pilots, just as I am entitled to refer to you as 'my' employee. I'm an owner, like it or not.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Unregistered said:
Out of curiousity, why would a package car driver make any more than a pizza delivery guy? All they're doing is delivering door-to-door. Why would a feeder driver make more than a bus driver? The bus driver is actually carrying people and not boxes.

The previous questions were out of jest, however reading some of the posts regarding the pilot's contract the same logic used above is being used by many here towards the pilots. I'm not a manager, teamster, or a pilot, but I've often wondered if the teamsters would stand behind the pilots as they did for them in 97. Comparing UPS pilots to the passenger industry is comparing apples to oranges. Like it or not they're highest trained and educated employees per capita within the company, top managers included.

What if in 97 the pilots said "You want how much for unskilled labor?" and "Why should the drivers make more than a taxi driver when they actually deliver people and work longer hours?" Not one pilot crossed the teamster's line, not one.

UPS is the best and employes the best. Every union member needs to remember that solidarity forges they're future. Don't ever sell yourself short or another class and craft.


If anything the package car driver should make more than the feeder driver and pilot. These are the bread and butter of UPS. They are the first and last thing the customer sees when they ship or receive a package. How many pilots lift up to 150lbs and carry their loads by hand up stairs all while being timed by stops per minute.

Your right about comparing apples to oranges. Thats why for years it was a well known fact that passenger pilots made a lot more than cargo pilots. Most passenger pilots got there starts in cargo to build flight time then. Now that the times have changed passenger pilots want to come back to cargo. Guess what though, they either want to come to UPS or Fed Ex. These are the main cargo companies that have the job security. The IPA needs a balance. They need to get paid but also have to get 'The Big Picture" :) With a global economy comes more risk. Right now we are putting alot of investment in China. What happens when the Chinese economy faulters. Don't say that it won't. These things come in cycles. Since you can't drive a feeder to Bejing who will fly it, the IPA. If the economy suffers who will be the first to start losing jobs, the IPA. Capt. Nicholson stated in the Press Conference today the first issue was job security. If that is truly the case then help the company and look at the big picture. Tom stated that UPS wanted to raise healthcare premiums 1000%. It isn't the company that is raising healthcare. Look at how much healthcare has gone up. The IPA and UPS should share those costs. There isn't very many companies out there that have not raised their healthcare premiums since 1998. Why can't the IPA break it up to where the senior Capt that makes more than 175k a year pay more in healthcosts and the junior new hire pay less since they make maybe 50 k a year. That way every IPA pilot pays the same percentage to wage instead of every IPA pilot paying the same amount when their wages differ greatly. He also said UPS has been dragging their feet. This was a wait and see to what Fed Ex was going to do. I think both sides are guilty of this. This is so UPS can try to save some money and the IPA can try to get some money after Fed Ex signs their deal. Tell me the IPA doesn't want to see what the purple people eaters are going to make. He said quality of life issues are complex but almost completed. So if it is money and job security then what kind of balance does the IPA want. Labor is the number one expense with a company. When labor gets too high people start losing jobs. UPS has offered an increase right?

At another site a person wrote that the IPA walked with the teamsters in 1997 because they couldn't fly. The aircraft dispatchers and mechanics were teamsters on strike. UPS was focusing on getting the packages out of the system and not putting them in in 1997. There was nothing to fly. Asia wasn't that big. I think UPS was using Challenge in Miami then for flights to Latin America. The IPA used the teamsters to get their 1998 deal that was signed just months after the 97 strike. They claimed solidarity but in looking back they had really no way or nothing too fly. This is a different puppy. The drivers grew the business after the strike. We were able to bounce back after 1997 in no time. What can the pilots do to grow the business? Does Amazon. com or JC Penny or Sears catalog have a airstrip to were the pilot can get out of their plane and thank them for using UPS? It will be up to the teamsters to work harder if the IPA strikes to recover lost business.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
As a shareholder I am entitled to refer to them as 'our' pilots, just as I am entitled to refer to you as 'my' employee. I'm an owner, like it or not.

Youve stumbled upon one of the great aberrations/abominations that UPS has committed letting ANY (ex-)hourly worker or the general public own a single share.

You *think* youre in a relationship of equals without ever having invested the time, energy, money, risk, AND without ever having the responsibility or accountability associated with the privilege of ownership.

Another reason UPS needs to announce a special dividend and ultimately enter chapter 7, IMO.

The resulting affiliation of companies would be free of hourly and sideline-sitting owners not worthy of the distinction. Thatd be a step in the right direction.
 

ok2bclever

I Re Member
Ah wkmac, hope that wasn't your best attempt at subtlety. :D

I would never defend a dog that bit someone without provocation. :p

I am trying to match levels here as exactly as I can. :cool:

All of that said, the forum has an anti-flame policy that has recently been revisited publicly on here by the moderator and if you reread my full response you will see that was the only dog I supported in my posting.
 

worldwide

Well-Known Member
Keep the IPA announcements coming!

IPA makes "major" announcement and stock goes up $1.38 to 76.82. Wall Street is not impressed by the saber rattling...
 

dannyboy

From the promised LAND
"just as I am entitled to refer to you as 'my' employee. I'm an owner"

Just because you own stock does not make us your employee. You might want to rethink that stand.

Unreg

"Youve stumbled upon one of the great aberrations/abominations that UPS has committed letting ANY (ex-)hourly worker "

And that has to be the most assinine statement that has ever been posted on this site. Congrats.

d
 

susiedriver

Well-Known Member
dBoy said:
"just as I am entitled to refer to you as 'my' employee. I'm an owner"

Just because you own stock does not make us your employee. You might want to rethink that stand.

You are an ex-employee, so there's no 'us' involved.;)
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
We spent 3 times the amount of money to fix the 2 aircraft that crashed, sorry, had an accident, sorry again, had an INCIDENT, just so we didn't have a hull loss which would of made the insurance go up.
 

tieguy

Banned
"What if in 97 the pilots said "You want how much for unskilled labor?" and "Why should the drivers make more than a taxi driver when they actually deliver people and work longer hours?" Not one pilot crossed the teamster's line, not one."

In fairness to the comparison you list your pilots could afford to enjoy the 2 week august vacation the teamsters provided them. I wonder if a package car driver working hard to support his family and meet his monthly mortgage will really get his heart into supporting a pilot who makes 175000 a year and is trying to get up to 200,000. One of the successes of the 97 strike was the teamster success at marketing that strike as a fight to get part timers full time jobs. Thats an issue the public was more than willing to support. It would be a little more difficult to get public support for pilots who for all intents and purposes are at the upper end of the wage scale . Realistically the only selling point hoffa has in the war is the point that the pilots are a union who supported the teamsters in 97. Their really is no other similarity between the blue collar teamsters and the elitist pilots group. The pilots sacrifice was wage wise significantly less of a drain on them than it would be on a teamster walking in kind. Should the pilots actually walk then Hoffa would be in a difficult situation. A long protacted strike would drain the teamster coffers.The pilots union being as small as it is would not have the financial resources to replenish the teamster coffers. Other unions would have to kick in financial support. This happening two years before the teamsters renegotiate their contract would weaken the teamsters bargaining position in 2008. Obviously not supporting the pilots would put him in political jeopardy. He would be in between the classic "rock and a hard place". I believer most UPSers support the union because belonging solidifies their bargaining position and the union does provide them some protection from overzealous management. That said i also believe most UPSers do not want to lose the financial position they gain belonging to a union by constantly being on the picket line. The teamsters union and the IPA also find theirselves in a difficult position because any hostile action against UPS does weaken UPS competitively which in turn weakens the unions in future bargaining efforts. Any effort by the union to concede issues to the company shows a weakness that could cost present union leadership politically. Prior to the 97 strike approximately 85 percent of all shippers were single carrier shippers with most shipping ground through UPS. While I have not seen recent numbers I think it would be safe to guess that most shippers today have become multiple carrier shippers. The 97 strike certainly played a part in that switch. Hence our present day struggles. How do we come up with a contract negotiating process that continues to allow our people to be the best compensated in the industry without hurting UPS competively. Many on the union side will blame the company for not negotiating in good faith when contract negotiations approach contract expiration. At the same time if the company actually gave in on all points during the initial stages of negotiations I have to wonder if the union would actually agree to settle the contract. Would they then actually agree to a fair offer presented early in the process or would they fear their membership would think that they the union had not fought hard enough for the best deal possible. Too many head games played when these negotiations take place and if we don't find a better way then all of us could end up paying the price.
 

ok2bclever

I Re Member
"if the company actually gave in on all points in the initial stages of negotiations"

Now there is an interesting question.

Let's try it and find out.

tie, go tell the head honchos to try this experiment. :D
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Unregistered said:
We spent 3 times the amount of money to fix the 2 aircraft that crashed, sorry, had an accident, sorry again, had an INCIDENT, just so we didn't have a hull loss which would of made the insurance go up.


That wouldn't have been a 767 at EFD and a MD11 @SDF would it?
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
Just a reminder. The pilot group where teamsters back in the late 80's. They chose to get rid of the teamsters and start their own union. The MD-11 one of our pilot's drove into the runway in Louisville is just about to make it's test flight to get back on the line for peak. Ater months in the hanger and alot of cash to Boeing it should be good as new.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
"Yes I have the address to the Pilot's forum. You would be better served to actually talk to a pilot. Surely you must know at least one. If not, go to the major airport nearest you, they fly in early in the morning nearly every day."

Cop out!! Did Suzie get caught in a lie?
 
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