Pilots - Here we go!

[tieguy]

Actually if I remember correctly, the Wall Street Journal set the record straight on the state of Teamsters funds vs. the offerings of UPS.

It appears they were all wrong. 11 of 21 teamster multi employer pension plans were 70 percent funded or less in 2003. Many of these funds are leaking like rusty old battleships. These pensions required some serious dialogue to get them turnaround which UPS tried to do in 97. I really don't want to beat the many fine UPSers here with this fact. It would be presumptuous of me to say that UPS would have fixed the problem in 97. But I do believe that 97 was the year to have the discussion and that UPS had more options then to get it fixed then; then they do now. But in fact again in 97 the teamsters screamed the company was not negotiating in good faith, Teamsters screamed that the company was trying to steal the pension and the good union members there blindly walked with Carey when he left.

Its an interesting analogy. Many of you accuse management of blindly following our leadership around like a bunch of sheep but yet do the same whenever your leadership barks an order. A union that only unites sheep is not a representative union.

 

[Unregistered]

Pilot Uniforms

The company actually wanted the Pilot's to wear brown coveralls in the begining because noone at ups wears ties but mgmt. The Carrier Pilot's had no problem with that it was the new guy's that wouldn't go for it.

 

[ok2bclever]

brownbusdriver,

Good luck in your union's continued attempts to get management to negotiate in good faith.

A very, very tough thing to do as the company rarely cooperates with anything short of force or fines, even with the government.

trick,

That's cool, it's the thought that counts.

 

[Unregistered]

Tieguy, you wrote:
"Actually a better post on your part. A little more human and a refreshing change from the monotous drone you were previously posting. My main objection in this area is the public attack your union is running against this company. I have always believed that a failure in negotiations is the result of both parties not getting the job done. Your side will argue that my side is not negotiating in good faith. My side may argue that your side has clearly shown it is not willing to settle this thing by running these public campaigns meant to cause uneasiness amongst our shippers."

I've read your posts on this thread and this is the first comment that I can say you sounded human as opposed to the "authoritative and dictatorial" tone you have so far conveyed! Yes, your comment may be human, but very condescending! It is sad! Unfortunately, that is the attitude that we 2700 pilots feel day in, day out! I have been flying UPS aircraft of 21 years, hired in 1988, as of this date I do not feel like I am respected or appreciated for my contribution to OUR COMPANY! I think I can speak for the majority of our pilots, they feel the same way! Why else would the IPA have a strike authorization vote of 98.5%? Why did that happen? Because we are happy, or??????
You say, "My main objection in this area is the public attack your union is running against this company. why's this? Because our company has chosen to hide behind the "Railway Labor Act"! They keep telling our customers that "Everything is fine, we have no labor problems, just like they did when the Teamsters went out on strike and left our customers hanging! They LIED to our customers! We have gone public for two reasons, force the company to negotiate, that is the only leverage the IPA when the NMB will not release us into a 30 day cooling off period, AGAIN, THE COMPANY IS HIDING BEHIND THE NMB!!!!!!! And second, let our customers know that there may be a problem with getting their product to market! You don't think the company would lie, what about the Teamsters strike in Canada a couple of yours ago?
I believe our company provides a great service to our customers, I also believe UPS has placed our company at great risk, where we go from here is unknown! But where ever it goes the blame lies at the doorstep of our CEO! The time is now!

 

[tieguy]

Interesting you would even think to make such a point considering the history of the teamsters.

 

[over9five]

"I would also make a case for the skill of a package driver who can dump 150 stops a day without any service disconnects. Or the feeder driver who not only has to have the skill to drive under all types of conditions but also has a lot closer contact with other drivers then you will ever have. How do you rate your skill compared to them."

Tie, The thing is when our contract comes up, you'll be saying the same thing, just switching the job catagories...

"You want how much money? What do you think are? Pilots? They're the ones who do the big job! They're the ones who make the money for the company! You're just a truck driver."

 

[tieguy]

"Tie, The thing is when our contract comes up, you'll be saying the same thing, just switching the job catagories...

Over . Reread the point you quoted. Reread the entire post. Step back a minute. Its possible that what we have here may be the first step in a repricing of the industry. In assessing the fair market value of the pilots in todays world you have to consider that:

1) There are companies paying a higher hourly rate than UPS

2) There are companies that once were viable and profitable who are now out of business or headed that way.

3) Automation may reduce the number of pilots needed in the future or devalue the skill level required to fly a plane

4) The pilots point that UPS is more than just an airline and that their salary should be based not only on the success of the airline part but the overall company.

If you bring in the rest of the companies success in trying to determine the pilots compensation worth than perhaps you have to compare them to others that contribute to this companies success.

At the same time you were not offended when Brown tried to justify his worth by denegrating the management position as being overpaid and incompetent.When in fact he makes a whole lot more than most UPS management. If he starts the comparison of his position to other jobs then i certainly am within my rights to extend that comparison to other jobs.

 

[BrownBusDriver]

I have never said the company offered anything. I have voiced the opinion due to the many our cries of "look at pilots at ....." that one should not expect us to take a pay cut based on pilots at other jobs, in other industries. There are some here, and many at the company which want to spread disinformation. I have tried to the best of my ability to add levity to this discussion. I am no insider, nor am I rich by most standards, have never had caviar. I grew up in a place that didn't even have a McDonalds until after I left for college.<G>

You show moments of willingness to discuss, but in the end, you attacked with words like to paint me as just another rich, self-centered airline pilot.

I have heard all this before, and I'm sure I have a number of years more to endure. This is the simply tactic of "attack when you don't have anything more thoughtful to add".

I don't know how to justify anyone's compensation. I can't drive my aircraft door to door and deliver. Drivers can make a feeder or package car swim the Pacific, and managers can't get any of it done with out all of us.

So here we sit, disgruntled and aggravated, and from a leadership point, who's job is it to set the standard of behavior and make the efforts of reconcilation? I have always assumed that the actions of those at the bottom reflect the attitude and example presented from the top.

As I have said before, 2600 men and women from all over the globe didn't arrive at UPS unhappy and disgruntled, but here we are. Who's responsibility is that?

I will let someone else take the lead here for awhile, I'm sure most are tired of my opinions, plus it has come down to me, you, and the retired guy. I don't think at this point we have any more ground in common to discuss.

 

[tieguy]

"I've read your posts on this thread and this is the first comment that I can say you sounded human as opposed to the "authoritative and dictatorial" tone you have so far conveyed!"

Bus you forget to log in? Sometimes I feel Authoritive , sometimes human sometimes confrontational sometimes whatever. Generally what I find is I post my honest opinion on a subject and then an individuals personal bias against the evil empire management will dictate how they translate what I say. The problem with message boards is you have no body language to read as you read my words. I'm really not as harsh as I sound and I don't normally try to sound as harsh as some think I sound. In fact I have people at work that call me a teddy bear. Imagine that.

Yes, your comment may be human, but very condescending!

Case in point , this time I got labeled condescending.

It is sad! Unfortunately, that is the attitude that we 2700 pilots feel day in, day out! I have been flying UPS aircraft of 21 years, hired in 1988, as of this date I do not feel like I am respected or appreciated for my contribution to OUR COMPANY! I think I can speak for the majority of our pilots, they feel the same way! Why else would the IPA have a strike authorization vote of 98.5%?

It is normal during long contract negotiations for the members of a union to start feeling underappreciated as the stress of the negotiations wear thin. Strike authorization votes always garner the results you show. Its a show of force and the members are told that. You appear to be psyching yourself up for the battle by telling yourself and us that you are underappreciated. Take your gut out of it. Its just business. Nothing more , nothing less.

 

[BrownBusDriver]

Object, ok. I object to years of negotiating in bad faith. I object to management continuing to reward themselves while not negotiating in good faith.

The public campaign is the last resort to motivate this company to really work to settle this contract. It is the last try before asking for a release on Dec 23rd. If released, we will start a 30 day cooling off period towards self help. Wow. Do you think I really want to do all of this? No.

Yes, we have gotten more agressive, we have to. We can not wild cat strike, walk off, call in sick, or any of the other common tools used by non-RLA organizations. It is against the law.

I really don't mind if management took everything left over from the profits, they kinda do now in bonuses. But every decade or so I would like the opportunity to negotiate a cut for myself, and would hope that every other person contributing to the success would expect the same.

As for all the other slander you have used towards me, oh well, it is to be expected. It seems to be the only relationship management here can build, one of a pure view of superiority. I'm not your servant, and frankly, your not my boss. Oh, I forgot, I'm a pilot, every one is my boss.<G> All 150k managers or so here. Wow, that is alot.

Adios,

BrownBusDriver

 

[BrownBusDriver]

Wasn't me, my replies are posted. I havn't worked here 20 years.

 

[BrownBusDriver]

It is normal during long contract negotiations for the members of a union to start feeling underappreciated as the stress of the negotiations wear thin. Strike authorization votes always garner the results you show. Its a show of force and the members are told that. You appear to be psyching yourself up for the battle by telling yourself and us that you are underappreciated. Take your gut out of it. Its just business. Nothing more , nothing less.

The public campaign is nothing personal, it's just business. It would seem to be stressing you and maybe other management somewhat.<g> Stand by, more incoming.<ng !="">

BrownBusDriver</ng></g>

 

[ok2bclever]

A poor misunderstood, caring management teddy bear.

That would be a hot Christmas seller I bet !

Every UPS employee should get one.

Reread as many postings as you want over9five and you will still be right about the tactics used.

Divide and conquer, such a simple, yet affective rerun used over the years by management.

 

[tieguy]

Speaking of but kissers there is OK my favorite one

 

[tieguy]

Another benifit that came of the 97 strike was the use and increased use of sleeper teams to move premium air packages. Its an interesting point since the pilots lost jobs they would have gained without the teasmters gaining this language in their contract.

 

[ok2bclever]

"Reread as many postings as you want over9five and you will still be right about the tactics used.

Divide and conquer, such a simple, yet affective rerun used over the years by management."

I remember seeing that quote on a message board and it continues to fit.

I must be doing something right if tie is flaming me.

Careful, your "reasonable, caring management teddy bear" facade is slipping.

Brace up, the weekend is almost over and you can go abuse someone in person tomorrow, that aught to cheer you up.

 

[tieguy]

Wow Okie Dokie are you so insecure that my responding to a point you made constitutes a flame

Please define these rules of engagement so I know when I am debating your point and when i would be flaming.

Hmmmm wait a minute i think I can figure it out if I make a point that you can not effectively rebut then it is either :

A) another devious management divide and conquer tactic

b) a flame .

got ya.

 

[tieguy]

Translation if Okie dokie yells flame then I got me a checkmate

 

[susiedriver]

Tieguy

You know what, as soon as you can post something without an obvious spelling or grammatical error, I will respond. I have a feeling responses will be few and far between.
<o =""></o>
PS- I know you miss me; I saw your unregistered posts.

 

[moreluck]

susie - driver
ups - girl

OMG, I think it's a mother-daughter tag team !!