Right to Work (for less)

[iowa boy]

why are you so insistent on obtaining a union job if you dont like what it entails? Why dont you go to a company that is not union to start? Rush Limbaugh always uses Fed Ex because they dont have a union. Sounds like a perfect fit for you

Plus, they have a much better starting wage than UPS does.

 

[iowa boy]

There are merits and demerits to everything but what you said in the post I replied to is factually incorrect nonetheless. Closed shop has been illegal since 1947. " its the closed shop status that some states have put in place that force the new employee to join the union regardless of whether they want to or not."

You are correct in saying that the 'closed shop' is illegal, but in doing my research on this topic, I have learned that there are states that allow for whatever company and the union that represents the workers to enter into an agreement requiring union membership after 30 days of employment or requiring the non union employees to pay 'agency fees' for the cost of representation by the union. States have the ability to pass legislation to abolish the 'union shop' agreements, but they have chosen not to. So I still stand by my asertation that affected employee that has to pay 'agency fees' needs to speak to their state legislators about passing a law that does away with the union shop status in their state(s).

I strongly oppose tricking people into signing up for something through misinformation. It should not be an automatic opt-in that requires research to figure out how to get yourself out.

How is anyone being tricked into signing up for anything. You have 30 days to do your research about the state in which you live and figure out whether you live in a non RTW state or a RTW state like I live in.

The choice to join or not join should be made crystal clear as organ donor opt-in on your driver's license.
Each individual has the right to make an informed decision for themselves. By that, I mean they should be given "would you like to become a member of the union yes - no" not an automatic enrollment that you have to take the time to research how to resign and write a letter to do so. I don't believe in trickery like this. This is like AOL free trial that requires a credit card number and assume you like it unless you cancel.

The choice to join the union rests squarely on your shoulders. If you choose to not do your research about the union in your first 30 days of employment, that fault lies squarely on you. If you knew when you took the job at UPS that you live in a non Right to Work state,(which I am assuming you already knew), then you have already had your 30 day trial period to decide if joining the union is the right fit for you or not. Don't come on here after 30 days and start whining because you were 'forced' to join a union that you don't believe in.

Each employee should have ready access to what joining/not joining means in their respective local.

Every employee already has access to this info. It's called talking the one of the stewards in the building or calling the local's main office and asking questions.

For example, not joining retains same wage/benefits rights offered to the same collective group, but loss of say in union matters.

So, like I said in a previous post, you are more than willing to soak up those benefits that the union has negotiated for you. But want to give nothing in return.



No, of course not. Here in non RTW state, not paying dues is not an option. While I agree there are pros, there are cons too. Job security for existing high seniority employees mean advancement and entry hold backs for new hires. To believe in seniority driven system or not is a personal opinion but everyone is entitled to accurate information such as the fact that employment is not conditional to union membership.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

No one should be forced to join a union. However, the power of labor is under wraps due to so many labor laws, therefore there is artificial validity.

 

[brett636]

I don't find it hard to make the case that certain groups of workers are not fairly represented by the union. Lets face it, in recent contracts the part-timers are the one taking on the bulk of the concessions, the combo workers get ignored, and the seasonal workers get no benefit of the union at all yet are forced to pay dues anyway. This union wants to join the OWS people yet it has helped to negotiate its own version of the "the one percent" by giving most of the contract benefits to the fulltime drivers. Now I am not complaining about this since I fall into this fulltime driver category, but I will not sit here and tell those other groups of employees who may or may not feel disenfranchised by the union that they have to pay union dues mainly for my benefit.

 

[AssistantSanta]

There are merits and demerits to everything but what you said in the post I replied to is factually incorrect nonetheless. Closed shop has been illegal since 1947. " its the closed shop status that some states have put in place that force the new employee to join the union regardless of whether they want to or not."

You are correct in saying that the 'closed shop' is illegal....

So did you already know that closed shop is illegal? If not, then, you learned something new. If you knew already, please advise why you wrote union membership is compulsory.

, but in doing my research on this topic, I have learned that there are states that allow for whatever company and the union that represents the workers to enter into an agreement requiring union membership after 30 days of employment or requiring the non union employees to pay 'agency fees' for the cost of representation by the union.

Hence my concerns. You and I had to go research this before we knew. We were NOT advised this in clear and direct language. Even as a helper, they threw in union paperwork along with employee policy paperwork. All they had to do was advise "here in State of ____, we're not a "right to work state", therefore agency fees are mandatory for all employees, however membership is strictly a personal decision"

I strongly oppose tricking people into signing up for something through misinformation. It should not be an automatic opt-in that requires research to figure out how to get yourself out.

How is anyone being tricked into signing up for anything. You have 30 days to do your research about the state in which you live and figure out whether you live in a non RTW state or a RTW state like I live in.

Much the same way like businesses offer free service for a period of time and paid service automatically kicks in until you take action. They don't tell you to try it, then join if you like. They say sign up first and if you cancel by xxx, you'll get billed.

Now with union, new hires aren't sent home with even a fine print advising of that right. They'll have to RESEARCH it themselves, which I think is manipulative.

The choice to join or not join should be made crystal clear as organ donor opt-in on your driver's license.
Each individual has the right to make an informed decision for themselves. By that, I mean they should be given "would you like to become a member of the union yes - no" not an automatic enrollment that you have to take the time to research how to resign and write a letter to do so. I don't believe in trickery like this. This is like AOL free trial that requires a credit card number and assume you like it unless you cancel.

The choice to join the union rests squarely on your shoulders. If you choose to not do your research about the union in your first 30 days of employment, that fault lies squarely on you. If you knew when you took the job at UPS that you live in a non Right to Work state,(which I am assuming you already knew), then you have already had your 30 day trial period to decide if joining the union is the right fit for you or not. Don't come on here after 30 days and start whining because you were 'forced' to join a union that you don't believe in.

I feel that's a predatory membership. You're basically admitting in other words they're not given "opt in/opt out" in clear language at the start and REQUIRES each employee to even realize whats going on and dedication on their part to research the process to OPT OUT while they're more or less given paper to sign that automatically opts them in. Sort of like hospitals that tell you to sign paperwork written in their favor but they don't give you adequate time to thoroughly read it.

Each employee should have ready access to what joining/not joining means in their respective local.

Every employee already has access to this info. It's called talking the one of the stewards in the building or calling the local's main office and asking questions.

But that shouldn't be necessary period. How hard could it be to integrate "union membership, yes/no, you may change your affiliation at anytime" into forms yo have to sign at the time of employment?

With the way is signed up, if they sign all the paperwork given to them, they'll have to figure out all the bureaucracy, find out who to talk to and make the calls to GET OUT of it.

For example, not joining retains same wage/benefits rights offered to the same collective group, but loss of say in union matters.

So, like I said in a previous post, you are more than willing to soak up those benefits that the union has negotiated for you. But want to give nothing in return.

It's a whole package that gives me benefits after a period of time but also forces me under their work place policy. You're speaking of union as something that gives nothing but good.

Job preferences and openings aren't granted based on a fair(in my opinion) system like random drawing among those who signed up, skill level matching or merit based selection like scholarships. So, on this board, you'll find disgruntled PTers who say "I work my butt off and I do well and there's no reward for hard work" and those who preach the contract and tell them to slow down and cite "fair day's work for fair day's pay".

So, not "soaking up" won't give me access to positions based on performance, therefore union can still weigh me down even if I take nothing from them.

More seniority means later in the list to be laid off and earlier in the line to be recalled. Of course the employees who's been there for a long time will hang tight to it and it most definitely provides preferential setup for lifers. They get away with a lot playing the "I've been here longer than you have" card. The only definitive thing about that is that well they started working there before someone else... It's like a ride on a slow escalator with no option to walk. You can't work harder to get ahead. All you can do is "ride" the time.

 

[washington57]

Oh my god.

Ass, you need to grow up and stop crying about being new. When you are new you get the worst of everything. Everyone goes through it. Seniority is the only fair way to do things.

So, cry a river, build a bridge and get over it!

This is a career, not a resume a builder. Go to fedex if you have such a colossal problem with the union.

Oh, also: Stop going on about harassment and union fines when neither of those things have happened to you and aren't likely to happen to you.

 

[washington57]

This is a freakin job, if you don't like it dont work here. Fkkkk. You sound like a go getter so go bust your butt and climb the ladder at fedex.

You are young and want everything now.

 

[washington57]

I don't find it hard to make the case that certain groups of workers are not fairly represented by the union. Lets face it, in recent contracts the part-timers are the one taking on the bulk of the concessions, the combo workers get ignored, and the seasonal workers get no benefit of the union at all yet are forced to pay dues anyway. This union wants to join the OWS people yet it has helped to negotiate its own version of the "the one percent" by giving most of the contract benefits to the fulltime drivers. Now I am not complaining about this since I fall into this fulltime driver category, but I will not sit here and tell those other groups of employees who may or may not feel disenfranchised by the union that they have to pay union dues mainly for my benefit.

Brett, you seem like a decent guy but misguided. FTers make up at least a third of UPSers and seasonals do not matter in regard to the

If all these PTers feel like they are getting the shaft they should voice their concerns to their local unions thats what they are paying them for.

It is also hard to take your posts seriously when you have Herman Cain as your avatar. That guy has been a train wreck...

 

[washington57]

I don't know why I bother replying to this crap because there is no way this guy is who he says he is. This forum gets worse every day because of trolls like Ass who litter this forum with total garbage posts.

 

[AssistantSanta]

Seniority is the only fair way to do things.

I understand that is your personal preference, but build a case showing why it is the only "fair" method.

there is no way this guy is who he says he is.

If you don't like what someone's got to say, accuse them. That must be your coping mechanism.

This forum gets worse every day because of trolls like Ass who litter this forum with total garbage posts.

Let me get this straight. Is that just a way of saying "I disagree with your POV, therefore its garbage?"

You claim my posts are garbage, but you don't provide adequate explanation for your claim. You take a guess that I'm young (correct, by the way) and take a stab at me for that, but you're not giving me good reasoning for what you're saying.

I try to make sure my posts are detailed and concise. Am I unclear or lacking supporting argument?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Unions promote mediocrity---this is a concept that you had better get used to if you hope to make this your career.

 

[washington57]

I understand that is your personal preference, but build a case showing why it is the only "fair" method.


If you don't like what someone's got to say, accuse them. That must be your coping mechanism.


Let me get this straight. Is that just a way of saying "I disagree with your POV, therefore its garbage?"

You claim my posts are garbage, but you don't provide adequate explanation for your claim. You take a guess that I'm young (correct, by the way) and take a stab at me for that, but you're not giving me good reasoning for what you're saying.

I try to make sure my posts are detailed and concise. Am I unclear or lacking supporting argument?

Whaaaaa whaaaaa whaaaaaa

 

[Johney]

I'm telling you all quit wasting your time with this guy he will be p/t management in less than a month "if" he gets hired permanently.

 

[Catatonic]

I don't know why I bother replying to this crap because there is no way this guy is who he says he is. This forum gets worse every day because of trolls like Ass who litter this forum with total garbage posts.

Actually Assist has made very articulate and well-thought out posts.

Without getting into his positions, he has been a breath of fresh air compared to the no argument, low-brow attack posts that typically appear here.

 

[iowa boy]

Actually Assist has made very articulate and well-thought out posts.

Without getting into his positions, he has been a breath of fresh air compared to the no argument, low-brow attack posts that typically appear here.

I agree with you Hoax, but hes putting in a hell of a lot of time worrying about something that is out of his control in the non RTW state that he lives in. He either joins the union or pays the 'agency fees' or whatever they are called in his state. If he doesn't like it, then he has the choice not to work at UPS. I may not agree with the union shop status, but "it is what it is". He knows what options are left, thusly he has a decision to make if he is offered a job.....

He knew when he started this thread he lived in a non RTW state, I dont see why it is an issue now. If he paid dues while being seasonal, put it a request for a refund. How hard is it anyway?

 

[Catatonic]

I agree with you Hoax, but hes putting in a hell of a lot of time worrying about something that is out of his control in the non RTW state that he lives in. He either joins the union or pays the 'agency fees' or whatever they are called in his state. If he doesn't like it, then he has the choice not to work at UPS. I may not agree with the union shop status, but "it is what it is". He knows what options are left, thusly he has a decision to make if he is offered a job.....

He knew when he started this thread he lived in a non RTW state, I dont see why it is an issue now. If he paid dues while being seasonal, put it a request for a refund. How hard is it anyway?

I agree with what you saying ... that was not my point. he has two options - join the Union or not and pay agency fees.

Whether you agree with what he posts, he does it in an intelligent well-thought out way. That's what I stated.

And by the way, Assist did not start this thread ... crowbar did.

 

[hypocrisy]

I agree with what you saying ... that was not my point. he has two options - join the Union or not and pay agency fees.

Whether you agree with what he posts, he does it in an intelligent well-thought out way. That's what I stated.

And by the way, Assist did not start this thread ... crowbar did.

Damn right I did, and **** took the bait like the RTW plant that he is.

So let's get this straight:

***** is so ignorant, that he signs a bunch of papers at his orientation without reading what he is signing and is shocked, SHOCKED! that he (oh my god!) Joined a UNION!

So his ************ self gets on his Commodore 64 and finds RTW.org and *poof* is educated and articulate.

Well GOLLY, I could have saved myself $30k in student loans if I had only gone to rtw.org!

While I'm at it, I'm kind of ignorant about handguns and want to buy one so I think I'll head over to csgv.org and bradycampaing.org and gets some smarts.

 

[hypocrisy]

Plus, they have a much better starting wage than UPS does.

Yes, but that "starting" wage is the ONLY wage!

 

[Catatonic]

While I'm at it, I'm kind of ignorant about handguns and want to buy one so I think I'll head over to csgv.org and bradycampaing.org and gets some smarts.

Good hunting and good luck!

 

[hypocrisy]

I'm MAD AS HELL! I tell you!
I went to Bradycampaign and they wanted a donation before I got into the site.
Well, gee, they seemed nice enough and the site was so flashy so sure, I'll toss them a few bucks (it bein' CHRISTmas and all god bless)
Well gosh darn it all to pieces, IT'S A WEBSITE ALL ABOUT BANNING HANDGUNS! There should be a warning!

I'm going to register at their forum and make a stink to hell and high water about this, I will not rest BELIEVE YOU ME, until this NONSENSE stops! There should be a little blinking neon checkbox on that donation pop up that says

HEY YOU, Yeah YOU the numbskull who can't read. THIS IS AN ANTI-HANDGUN website. Know what that means Jethro? So any money you give us is going to take away your right to shoot your cousin who's banging your sister on your back porch. (Unless it's really you, not your cousin, then we respect, and encourage, your right to shoot yourself). So if you still want to donate, check here to enter your credit card number:__

So sorry guys, I'm going to be super busy for a while. I'm on a mission from God.