The Air Hub

Discussion in 'The Archives' started by fxnjetz, Sep 12, 2002.

  1. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest

    To All,

    No, this thread is not about Louisville (necessarily), but rather one where we can exchange opinions/argue about all things Airline related.

    Actually, I just dislike seeing the words Airline and woes in the same sentence (it must be a form of OCD).

  2. retired

    retired Guest

    Welcome fxnjetz, it's great to have someone other than kjones posting on the board from the airline side of the business.
  3. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest


    Just a quick update:

    Members of Local 2727 have ratified a new contract.

    Yes - 653

    No - 430

  4. gsx1990

    gsx1990 Guest

    It amazes me with today's state of the economy
    and the state of other airlines that so many
    people voted against it. Thank God enough had
    the common sense to not let GREED get to them....

  5. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest

    Actually, many of us were not surprised. There were many issues that were not resolved to everyones satisfaction. That is to be expected, the Tribe has spoken.

    I'm not sure that dismissing those issues as motivated by "GREED" however, shows much of an understanding or grasp.

    At any rate, its moot. Deal is done, time to move on.

  6. gsx1990

    gsx1990 Guest

    Good point. I may not 100% understand all the
    issues. But with airlines going under left and
    right, and others asking for big paybacks from their employees, I don't know what to call it when UPS mechanics are offered the highest pay in the industry, and still 35% of them turn it down.
    GREED might not be the proper word. But then again it might be..... What word would you say
    it is?

  7. gsx1990

    gsx1990 Guest

    Please elaborate, and educate us. What exactly were the issues that caused so many to
    vote against this contract? I would like to know
    so that I might make a more educated decision
    about the no-votes.... I'm being 100% honest
    here, I really do want to know the issues that
    are so bad with their jobs that they would vote
    down a contract in today's economy.

  8. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest


    You seem to take the position of master arbiter in deciding what may or may not be enough for another group to be satisfied with, I would suggest to you that this is a question that can only be answered by the parties involved. That we as a group would deign to refuse the first offer, and then not overwhelmingly endorse the second, is simply the collective bargaining proccess at work. The Union attempts to use what leverage it can, as does the Company to determine a fair and equitable deal. I dont think it is a question of what is so bad in our jobs as much as it is attempting to negotiate for the absolute best.

    It will not be a simple task to elaborate for you the issues at hand in one post. Some of these are likely things you would disagree with or dismiss purely as "greed". I'll attempt to highlight a few for starters.

    As to the deal in light of the current economy:

    Without question the economy is floundering. It would seem however that UPS has managed to navigate these difficult times (as well as others) and in fact position itself uniquely as a provider of worldwide logistic services. That the Company has been able to thrive for all these years and sustain not only profitability, but expand and succeed around the world, would seem to suggest that present difficulties notwithstanding, UPS will continue in exemplary fashion. We simply want to be recognized/remunerated for our contributions to that effort in the same exemplary fashion.

    As to the deal in light of the airline industry:

    First off I know we are an "airline". I disagree, but we have been permanently saddled with the label, too late to argue otherwise at this late date. Suffice it to say that the "airlines" as compared to "logistics providers" (ie. UPS, FedEx, etc) are completely different business models that rely on totally different revenue streams, and are subject to market forces that bear little if any resemblance to one another. So if you want to stick with your assertion that because the airlines are going under left and right, and that somehow is going to affect us as an airline, then we are in deeper trouble than any of us imagine.

    As to the deal itself:

    You rightly assert that this is the highest paying deal in the airline industry. The 35% who voted against it, may have done so because they will not be (the highest paid). That is to say that the deal is very favorable (industry leading) for the most senior AMT/FSM, and for AMC. AMT/Utility starting pay however, is not favorable. In fact these are among the lowest pay rates in the industry. In addition, for those in all classifications in the mid-seniority ranges, the progression to the top was an issue. So some voted against due to these groups being left to bring up the rear so to speak, as well as the time spent in attaining the top. There also was some controversy surrounding the gap in pay between AMT/AMC.

    Another issue was medical coverage after retirement. This was a key issue, the best we could attain was a "me too" clause which basically says if any other union represented employee group negotiates this benefit, Local 2727 will get it as well. In addition we got a committment from the Company to "check and see" if there were any plans available through the Companies carriers that we might participate in, cost to be paid by us. Not the outcome we had hoped for.

    The second t/a, actually went backward in some respects. It added another year, the payraise in that year will be something on the order of 6%. It added the number of relief mechanics, which is not generally seen as a benefit to the membership. It pushed back the time frame for the Company to bring more component repairs in-house, as well as the time frame for replacing vendors at some gateways.

    This should be enough to get you started, I've run out of time. I realize that you may not agree with any of what I've laid out here. You are entitled to your opinions. Ascribing motive such as greed or avarice however, seems a bit too casual.

  9. over9five

    over9five Guest


    Bravo, well said. Thanks for the insight.
  10. gsx1990

    gsx1990 Guest

    I do not claim to be a "master arbiter in deciding what may or may not be enough for another group". However, as a shareholder in
    this company, I feel it is my business what UPS
    offers its employees in terms of pay. My point
    was that I was, and still am shocked that so
    many UPS mechanics would vote against such a
    generous offer, especially considering the current
    finacial situation in the aviation industry.

    By voting down another contract, it only raises
    the spector of another strike at UPS. We are
    not the only game in town anymore. I sometimes
    think the union reps at UPS fail to remember this.
    I agree that most UPS employees are very hard
    working and deserve a fair contract. I hardly find the items you presented enough reason to
    potenially cause tremendous damage to the hand
    that feeds you. Again, I respect and value
    your opinion, and I thank you for responding
    in an intelligent manner.

  11. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest


    Perhaps if you would attempt to make any real comparisons between the "aviation industry", and the industry in which we compete, you might entertain some broader opinion than that which you currently hold.

    While I will not completely disagree with your characterization of the deal being "generous", I would add that again, that is a value judgment you presumably have placed on our worth vis a vis the "aviation industry". At some point this will likely become a circular argument.

    Unless and until you can get beyond being "shocked", we apparently will not get beyond the agree to disagree stage. Also, you may want to hold some of your dismay in reserve for what is about to occur with the pilots upcoming contract.

    As to the spectre of another strike (from the airline side), would be at this juncture, next to nil. Our contracts now include a clause that take us directly into mediation on the amenable date of the agreement. Under the RLA, the mediatior is not limited nor compelled by any time limit. Therefore, if we cannot obtain a release from the mediator, we are prohibited from ever starting a cooling off period and hence legally unable to engage in "self-help" (read strike).

    As to the rest of your post, I would only add that it is not merely a question of "hard working", but a question of responsibility. As an aircraft mechanic at UPS, I am not only expected to be proficient on six seperate fleet types, but also avionics (analog and digital), sheetmetal & composite repair, CAT 2/3, ETOPS, Borescope, and Taxi. No other "airline" requires such a degree of comprehensive capability as we currently are called upon to demonstrate.

    Also, I would take some minor exception with your use of the "hand that feeds you" characterization. I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly so) that we were all partners in this deal. The notion that UPS is some benevolent/malignant patriarch that will care for me/cast me off for my good behavior/insolence is a concept hardly within my ability to grasp.

    For what it's worth, I happen to be a shareholder as well. As such, maybe you could enlighten me as to what it is you do and what your pay/benefits are so as to facilitate some judgment on my part regarding your worth to my company.

  12. Seems there is a slight lull in activity here. Anyone know anything about UPS/IPA negotiations? Have they started? When's their contract up for renewal, why start so early?
  13. fxnjetz

    fxnjetz Guest


    Here is a link to the IPA Website.

    These negotiations typically start a bit early. They are fairly complex in nature, involve some of the highest wage and benefits packages in the Company.

    Also, the Pilot group is the most intelligent, unified, and well represented group at UPS (IMHO).

    They have in the past, and no doubt will in the future, play hardball if they are not satisfied. A formidable foe to say the least. Of all the contract battles, this is the one to watch.

  14. Thanks. I'll check the IPA out. Any thoughts on what the pilots "want" this go around versus what the company is willing to "give?"

    Mac [​IMG]
  15. kjones514

    kjones514 Guest

    Well UPS has decided to not pay us our 401k retro within the 30 day, DOS as agreed too. Why does UPS not want to agree to the contract? We recently had an AMT that was fired for "sleeping on the job", of course before System Board, the company agreed to a 30 day suspension but upon returning to work, this AMT was still being harassed by mgt. Last week Brother *****(edited by webmaster) took his own life, UPS had turned his family and personal life into a downward spiral that no one around him could see. Also Mr. fxn jet could you tell us about the AMT in ORD that was suspened for some problem with ORD Airport Board.
  16. tieguy

    tieguy Guest

    Thats pretty strong language to try to blame UPS for ****** (edited by webmaster) suicide.Do you guys actually believe this stuff?
  17. lr1937

    lr1937 Guest

    It is more than strong. I would think a fellow worker would respect your privacy when you go to the grave rather than publicise a suicide. I think it is sick but expected from some one who hates the company enough to blame a fellow workers suicide on ups. Why even post it other than to use libelous BS to put ups in a bad light. Where the hell is your proof? Nice work Jones. I am glad I am not an associate of yours. Your comments regarding ****** (edited by webmaster) are in poor taste, ignorant and suck.
  18. cheryl

    cheryl Guest


    Your flippant comments about the tragic death of a coworker are disrespectful and offensive. Exploiting this situation to further your agenda here is one of the most offensive things that I have ever seen posted on this board. His family has experienced a terrible loss and certainly would not appreciate your post.

    Your account has been suspended...

    (Message edited by Cheryl on November 11, 2002)
  19. On other news...

    UPS, pilots begin negotiations today

    Talks will stress collaboration at urging of mediation board

    By Bill Wolfe, The Courier-Journal

    Talks between United Parcel Service and the Independent Pilots Association begin today in Louisville with a new approach to negotiations that both sides hope will quickly lead to a new contract.

    Louisville-based UPS Airlines and the association, which represents 2,520 UPS pilots, agreed this year to a proposal from the National Mediation Board to use ''interest-based'' bargaining. That's a negotiating technique that stresses collaboration and consensus over the more confrontational approach of traditional bargaining, said UPS spokesman Mark Giuffre.

    With the new approach, ''both parties agree on the issues to be discussed in a given bargaining session,'' and then ''collaborate to reach consensus,'' he said.

    In traditional bargaining, each side presents a vision for a contract, then they haggle over details. Interest-based bargaining requires labor and management to share their goals and information in a process that advocates say builds trust and cooperation.

    ''Both sides say, 'Here's our interest in this. Let's come to some sort of common ground,' '' Giuffre said.
    The pilots' association sees pilot fatigue and flight scheduling as pressing contract issues. UPS has called pay and crew scheduling its key concerns.

    Negotiators for both sides reported to Washington, D.C., on Oct. 15 for a week of joint training in the bargaining style, which is being used for the first time at UPS. Two weeks later, they met again in Louisville to go over the ground rules for the contract talks.

    Negotiations will continue every other week, with a December holiday break, Giuffre said. The pilots' contract falls under the National Railway Labor Act and does not expire, but reaches what is called an ''amendable date,'' when provisions are subject to change, on Dec. 31 next year. It's not uncommon for contract talks to continue for years past the amendable date. Strikes can be authorized only as a last resort.

    Capt. Bob Miller, president of the Louisville-based pilots' association, said in a written statement yesterday that there are ''a number of major issues that the company needs to address,'' but ''we are hopeful we can reach agreement on them. By sitting at the table together from the beginning, we believe constructive solutions can be found.''

    The interest-based negotiations will have a mediator present from the outset, which ''will help speed the process and hopefully lessen controversies often associated with negotiations,'' Miller said.

    The new approach ''can also help control destructive behavior during the negotiations,'' because discussions center on objectives, not specific contract provisions, Giuffre said.

    The new technique also means that ''most of the discussion is being done at the table,'' rather than in private meetings away from the negotiations, Giuffre said. ''That really helps facilitate trust.

    ''It's less of a poker game and more of a collaborative effort.''

    Carrie Donald, director of the Labor-Management Center at the University of Louisville, said interest based bargaining is typically used in industries where strikes are not an option, such as certain government jobs and private-sector industries such as railways and airlines. ''It seems to work for those industries,'' she said.

    ''It has been used by the teachers here in Jefferson County. I think they have found it effective.''

    The last contract agreement between UPS and the pilots' association came in 1998 -- two years after the amendable date. UPS is hopeful that the new negotiating format will lead to an earlier agreement this time.

    The early start to negotiations is a big change from the previous contract talks, which began shortly before the contract came due for renegotiation.

    The pilots have not spelled out specific wage demands, but want to be paid at the top of their profession, Miller said in September.


    Last we knew:

    UPS had reached contract agreements with its Teamsters drivers, hub workers and airline mechanics, but still faced negotiations with the Independent Pilots Association, which represents 2,520 UPS pilots. The association highlighted pilot fatigue and flight scheduling as key contract issues.

    The latest:

    Talks begin today and could easily continue a year or more. But both sides hope a more open, cooperative negotiating format will bring a relatively speedy conclusion.

    Why it's news:

    The 1996 pilots' contract wasn't secured until 1998. Louisville-based UPS Airlines would like to put the labor issue to rest with an agreement before the end of next year, when the contract can be amended.

    More info: and
  20. And by the way, I agree...

    "Your flippant comments about the tragic death of a coworker are disrespectful and offensive. Exploiting this situation to further your agenda here is one of the most offensive things that I have ever seen posted on this board. His family has experienced a terrible loss and certainly would not appreciate your post."