FedEx courier
Well-Known Member
Wow, a new breed? They don't want anyone to be negative but then they talk trash about the people who want the Union. The plants are getting stranger by the day!???
FedEx courier
Well-Known Member
If that is true then why would it matter if the classification changed? The employees would still have to vote it in. Is that logical enough for you?
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
I describe myself as a pragmatist...
This is beyond pragmatism, it is cynicism to to the n'th degree.
Promised meant to be broken, cheating on spouse, stuff happens, look out for number 1...
Sounds like someone just went through a major life crisis and is angry at the world.
Been there done that, it isn't how life is meant to be lived.
Just because "stuff happens" in life, doesn't mean that people have to accept that "stuff" with a fatalistic outlook.
I had to learn the lesson many years ago that the world doesn't stop revolving because I had a major crisis in my life. You're absolutely right, the world DOES NOT CARE about you as an individual. FedEx doesn't care about you as an individual, your ex doesn't care about you any more and to be honest, the readers of this forum don't care much either. I think this is one of those developmental stages that Piaget talked about.
It is a fact of life. With over 300,000,000 of us crammed in country, we're lucky to have a handful that actually care about us and we care about in return.
With that fact established...
We do have the capability to come together and organize to receive better compensation for our efforts. Having established that Fred doesn't give a shake about any of us, it falls to us to act collectively to better our lives despite Fred's opinion of us. Life does suck. Life is also good. Just because life sucks at times doesn't mean that we can't try to make it better.
I'm going to go out on a limb and give some advice.
Find some cutie that isn't feeling too good about life herself. Purchase the appropriate protection and have yourself a good time. It won't solve any problems, but you'll feel a whole lot better about life. You may even decide that you want to begin to put forth the effort to change things for the better. We all get hurt in life, it is how we decide to act after getting hurt/shafted/screwed/cheated upon that is important. You could also call Peoplehelp... I think the cutie would do more good.
Right now, I'd like Fred to experience some of that hurt/....
Ricochet, I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not attacking you so no need for all the histrionics if you choose to respond but I'm curious how you came up with a $7k jump in average earnings in just 5 years?
I realize you were just giving an example but in trying to understand all of this and cut through all the noise that's out there, how likely is an average 25 year employee to see that kind of jump?
You cannot possibly know this. To state it unequivocally is doing just the same thing you are saying that FedEx is doing, i.e. spreading misinformation. In other words, KoolAid comes in more than one color.
I'm no different than the average employee and I want to be paid more for what I do and I want better benefits. If a union can get me a better overall compensation package then I'm all for it. However in order for me, and many, many others out there, to make an informed decision, credibility is essential.
Out of curiosity, do you know what the top pay is for a courier under the new NMA for UPS? I tried to figure it out but I'm not sure what some of the terms mean and not sure if I'm reading it correctly.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
If there hadn't been a pay freeze in 2009 and a 2% announced in 2010, very likely...
When making a model starting from 2008, I had to use the "rules" that were in effect in 2008. This meant an assumption of the top end increasing each year by 3%. The average high for a 25 year Courier having worked a decent amount of OT came to just under $48,000. and the average high would've increased to just under $55,000 by 2013.
With the unilateral change in the rules - '09 freeze and '10 2%. this becomes $52,785 average high in 2013, a drop of just over $2,000. So the topped out Courier near retirement will lose about $1,000 a year from their pension when they start drawing in at age 60 as a result of the '09/'10 pay "limitations". One has to use the conditions that are in place at the start of a model to create said model. Who would've guessed that FedEx would go for an entire year and say nothing about the scheduled 2009 pay raises, continue to say nothing, then announce no pay raise.
As far as knowing if any of this would happen with a union in place, you better believe it. There would've been no unilateral pay freezes and changes in the pension plan. Unions exist to prevent this very type of maneuver by executive management. There is no flavoring involved with my assertion. Had FedEx Couriers had a nationwide union in place, there would've been no pay freeze or pension plan changes made. Take that to the bank. Fred could've tried to negotiate a change in the compensation levels, but would've been met with a firm no. He would've even tried some layoffs and reductions in hours. In the end, the pieces would have to be moved and Fred would have to continue to pay union rates.
UPS drivers proved in '97 that they could fight back when it came to compensation levels. You can try to play devil's advocate all you want, the only option FedEx wage employees have to change the situation is to certify a union. Whether that happens under NLRB or RLA rules doesn't change the fact, FedEx is anti-union, anti-employee and has no reason to change its tune unless a union becomes certified.
It will be a long fight and I'll be long gone before any of this changes. But that doesn't change the fact that change is necessary for the employees that stay. I really don't think FedEx will retain the full time Courier long enough to allow a union a chance. Fred has stacked that deck. Part-time employees to deliver overnight and do all pickups, outsourcing delivery of non-overnight to Ground. This is Fred's plan. Unless a union is in place BEFORE he can pull it off, the full time Courier had better look for different work or a cut in hours.
First, thanks for the courteous reply. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this stuff civilly.
I see where you are getting the $55k but that wouldn't be the high 5 average. That would just be their highest year. The high 5 average would be less, albeit only a few thousand. Not earth shattering but as I said, just trying to make sure I understand.
Respectfully, I disagree. To know what would have and would not have been in a contract is impossible. That is really my biggest concern, that everything is up for negotiation if a union is voted in. I have no way of knowing if what's negotiated will, in fact, be better for me. Just because the union demands more pay doesn't mean FedEx will agree to it. As for the pension plan change, from what I understand, the ERISA change pretty much dictated the direction FedEx took. Now that's not to say that under the PPP FedEx couldn't have given more than the 5, 6, 7, or 8%.
Which reminds me, one thing that hasn't been mentioned and would be pertinent to some of your examples, is the additional percentage that is being put into the PPP between 2008 and 2013 to make up for some of the shortfalls for those employees who would retire during the first few years of the PPP. I can't remember all the details as I'm not retiring anytime soon but I do remember something about additional funds.
Ricochet1a
Well-Known Member
The figures were sum of average high. I had a column in my spreadsheet where I had sum of the years divided by number of years, so I had a running average high for each year of employment. The numbers I stated were right on.
You seem to want to quibble over a percentage here and a percentage there. Fine. Create your own spreadsheet with your assumptions and present your findings. You're missing the forest while looking at a tree branch.
FedEx employees have LOST. We've lost compensation, we're losing job security and we're losing patience. Quibbling about a percent from a model here and there isn't going to change the big picture. If you are seriously weighing whether or not to support unionization over a percentage point or two, save yourself the time and effort and don't bother.
Supporting a decision to unionize is beyond a pure dollars and cents decision. It can't be boiled down to competing models of cost benefit analysis. In the end, it is a decison based upon an emotional reaction to a situation. It is a decision that must be made on the evaluation of a situation one finds oneself and their coworkers in. Like all high risk decisions, there is often greater potential of loss for an individual than personal gain. It is a decision that must be made on the basis of what one believes is fundamentally right more than what one believes they can personally benefit from.
If one is hesitant because they think what they want as an individual will not be included in a union negotiation, then they have no business joining a union. Unions succeed because they take collective action, not personally tailored action. It is the conflicting personal desires of potential union members that corporate executives attempt to exploit to prevent any successful union action. One has to be able to act in concert with their coworkers to create a list of desired items and non-negotiatable items for a union contract. You may get what you want, you may not. But there is no disputing that in the end, you get more with a union contract than without. The national average is about 30% greater compensation for union worker than non-union workers in comparable job categories.
And yes, I had a 8% of gross annual contribution calcuated when I compared Traditional Pension to the capped traditional with PPP. I posted those results. I'll make sure I include specifc details of every assumption I make in any future evaluations of pension or compensation levels.
You seem to want to quibble over a percentage here and a percentage there. Fine. Create your own spreadsheet with your assumptions and present your findings. You're missing the forest while looking at a tree branch.
FedEx employees have LOST. We've lost compensation, we're losing job security and we're losing patience. Quibbling about a percent from a model here and there isn't going to change the big picture. If you are seriously weighing whether or not to support unionization over a percentage point or two, save yourself the time and effort and don't bother.
Supporting a decision to unionize is beyond a pure dollars and cents decision. It can't be boiled down to competing models of cost benefit analysis. In the end, it is a decison based upon an emotional reaction to a situation. It is a decision that must be made on the evaluation of a situation one finds oneself and their coworkers in. Like all high risk decisions, there is often greater potential of loss for an individual than personal gain. It is a decision that must be made on the basis of what one believes is fundamentally right more than what one believes they can personally benefit from.
If one is hesitant because they think what they want as an individual will not be included in a union negotiation, then they have no business joining a union. Unions succeed because they take collective action, not personally tailored action. It is the conflicting personal desires of potential union members that corporate executives attempt to exploit to prevent any successful union action. One has to be able to act in concert with their coworkers to create a list of desired items and non-negotiatable items for a union contract. You may get what you want, you may not. But there is no disputing that in the end, you get more with a union contract than without. The national average is about 30% greater compensation for union worker than non-union workers in comparable job categories.
And yes, I had a 8% of gross annual contribution calcuated when I compared Traditional Pension to the capped traditional with PPP. I posted those results. I'll make sure I include specifc details of every assumption I make in any future evaluations of pension or compensation levels.
Uh Oh....Do we have a BO supporter here? You like that socialized medicine huh?
Dude the pension isn't coming back. Quite looking in the rear view mirror and start looking forward to find new battles that haven't been lost yet and fight for those. Wage increase or no increase will be announced in Jan.
I could care less whether you think I work for FDX or not. Its pretty pathetic that you and your like come to a UPS website of all things to complain about FDX. You ought to be embarrassed. I know I am embarrassed to call you a fellow employee. I am sure most of the UPS people on here laugh their asses off at what a loser you are to be on their site crying like a baby. Why don't you grow some testicular fortitude and create you own web site(purple cafe) and try and recruit some FDX employees to champion your cause, because on here you are just preaching to the choir.
We were sitting around the RT the other night checking out this site and laughing at FDX employees like you hanging out on here. The question of the night was: What does the Mr in you MrFedEx screen name mean? ******************************. Good luck with that!
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I can't wait to hear "Artee" respond to this.
Respond to what? Your "Very Happy" smiley face? You need to go back to the edge of the playground and watch the "big boys" play. You aren't ready to hold your own yet.
FedEX 4 Life
Well-Known Member
These clowns Mr Fedex and Richofragg are the laughing stock of this forum and they dont even know it.All they do is cry and wine about FDX and talk about the good ol days.I actually like reading thier posts,it makes me feel better knowing there are people out there more screwed up than I am.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were using current year pay. Not sure why I thought that as you did say averages.
Not quibbling. Just want to know correct facts. If accuracy isn't important then I've got some "facts" to share.
Maybe so but seeing as the biggest issues seem to be pay and pension, I'd say that dollars and cents are the primary drivers in peoples' decisions. And it's the emotional reaction that worries me. That's not the way to make this decision. While I respect your position on this, do you honestly believe that the majority of employees will base their decision on what is fundamentally right or will it be based on what's in it for them?
As I said upthread, you missed the additional percentage. In this case it would be between 2 - 5% per year at least through 2013 and possibly longer. This would be in addition to the 8%. Regardless of the amount of difference that makes, it is significant enough that it should be included. Excluding it just distorts the facts.
My point is simply that I believe dollars and cents are primary factors in this. Let's face it, FedEx employees unhappy with FedEx aren't saying "let's get a union in here so I can work as hard as a UPS driver". Given that, when people are making their decision based on money, any distortion of the facts has the potential to cause them to make a misinformed decision. Perhaps they'll get lucky and the decision will still be the right one but I hate to see people just crossing their fingers and hoping for the best.
Since when does the State determine who gets a union and who doesn't? Or are you saying that if people are forced to join a union there would be a union?
Check out the Pension Protection Act of 2006 http://www.dol.gov/EBSA/pensionreform.html
Show me a question I haven't answered directly and I'll answer it. As I've stated, I don't post often because any opposing view or even questioning a topic leads to petty name calling. This particular topic interested me enough to come in and ask some questions.
If I'm not mistaken, there are a higher percentage of part-time employees at UPS than there are at FedEx so why would having more part-time FedEx employees make a difference to whether or not a union has a chance?
O
olcc
Guest
Welcome back Artee, thanks for another insightful four posts in a row. Do you have anything valid to add to the discussion? If not, GTFO.
DorkHead
Well-Known Member
Dude the pension isn't coming back. Quite looking in the rear view mirror and start looking forward to find new battles that haven't been lost yet and fight for those. Wage increase or no increase will be announced in Jan.
I could care less whether you think I work for FDX or not. Its pretty pathetic that you and your like come to a UPS website of all things to complain about FDX. You ought to be embarrassed. I know I am embarrassed to call you a fellow employee. I am sure most of the UPS people on here laugh their asses off at what a loser you are to be on their site crying like a baby. Why don't you grow some testicular fortitude and create you own web site(purple cafe) and try and recruit some FDX employees to champion your cause, because on here you are just preaching to the choir.
We were sitting around the RT the other night checking out this site and laughing at FDX employees like you hanging out on here. The question of the night was: What does the Mr in you MrFedEx screen name mean? ******************************. Good luck with that!
First of all this is NOT a UPS website. Second, I am a UPS driver and am NOT laughing my ass off. Mr. Fedex and a couple others have been here from the beginning when Cheryl (the moderator) started this section of BC. I personally like reading what they have to say. They have very valid points and back them up with numbers and statistics.
On the other side, you and others come on here and show just how misinformed and ignorant you really are. If you don`t agree with someone, fine. No need to be uncivil about it.
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
Since when does the State determine who gets a union and who doesn't? Or are you saying that if people are forced to join a union there would be a union?
Check out the Pension Protection Act of 2006 http://www.dol.gov/EBSA/pensionreform.html
Show me a question I haven't answered directly and I'll answer it. As I've stated, I don't post often because any opposing view or even questioning a topic leads to petty name calling. This particular topic interested me enough to come in and ask some questions.
Here's some reality for you. Yes, FedEx could theoretically go union under the RLA. Reality dictates that would never happen and Fred knows it....that's why he's so upset that he might see the company reclassified. Under the NLRA, it wouldn't matter if the couriers in Arkansas thought the Teamsters were a Commie plot...we could still go union while they stayed non-union and continued to be abused by their lord and master Mr Smith.
As I've said before, ERISA was a convenient excuse that allowed Smith to hide behind the smokescreen of being required to fully fund the pension plan. He could have chosen to continue with the old plan, which wasn't very generous anyway, but he took the low road and went with the PPP.
MrFedEx
Engorged Member
Dude the pension isn't coming back. Quite looking in the rear view mirror and start looking forward to find new battles that haven't been lost yet and fight for those. Wage increase or no increase will be announced in Jan.
I could care less whether you think I work for FDX or not. Its pretty pathetic that you and your like come to a UPS website of all things to complain about FDX. You ought to be embarrassed. I know I am embarrassed to call you a fellow employee. I am sure most of the UPS people on here laugh their asses off at what a loser you are to be on their site crying like a baby. Why don't you grow some testicular fortitude and create you own web site(purple cafe) and try and recruit some FDX employees to champion your cause, because on here you are just preaching to the choir.
We were sitting around the RT the other night checking out this site and laughing at FDX employees like you hanging out on here. The question of the night was: What does the Mr in you MrFedEx screen name mean? ******************************. Good luck with that!
It's because of employees like you that we lost our pension in the first place. Too cowardly to speak out or do anything constructive to fight another in a long list of takeaways. If you just want to lie there and have Fred continue to have his way with you, go right ahead.
It actually does matter if you are an employee because this site has been flooded with trolls and shills like you ever since the RLA controversy and Brownbailout.com heated up. "Fakes" are a waste of time and add nothing to the discussion. If you've ever followed this site, UPS'ers are important allies in the effort to go Teamster. They also have some skin in the game, and have a lot of insight on what it's like to be in a union, both the good and the bad.
I'm sure your name has popped-up on someones security screen in MEM because you were stupid enough to access the BC from work...brilliant move. Now you'll have your entire management team watching you for union activities. Ironic, isn't it? Funny, when I'm at the RT, I don't have time to sit around and play on the Internet like you do.
You are the type of employee that embarasses me. You just sit and take it, over and over again thinking you're powerless to do anything about the screwing you've been getting. Keep on believing in FedEx and see what it gets you, OK?
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