What is the UPS end game with the current health care proposal?

[Brown287]

I voted for Obama but he seems to play both sides of the fence when it comes to unions. I honestly thought that with him in office he would make more of a push in making FedEx change its classification. So far nothing has happened.

As far as people looking at UPS as they do as Walmart that's a bit of a stretch. The most leftist I know will be the first to tell me how good we have it. Unfortunately we live in a country where people let their jealousy guide their decisions instead of common sense.

In my family I'm the only one with full medical, thus they look at me with no sympathy when I've discussed UPS's proposals. I don't get it, I tell them I know they don't have what I do but my thought isn't bring us down to their level but for them to come up to ours.

That's the problem here. To them we are spoiled and in desperate need of a reality check. Just an example of how the "haves" have successfully devided the "have nots". Pathetic but true.

 

[bbsam]

I voted for Obama but he seems to play both sides of the fence when it comes to unions. I honestly thought that with him in office he would make more of a push in making FedEx change its classification. So far nothing has happened.

As far as people looking at UPS as they do as Walmart that's a bit of a stretch. The most leftist I know will be the first to tell me how good we have it. Unfortunately we live in a country where people let their jealousy guide their decisions instead of common sense.

In my family I'm the only one with full medical, thus they look at me with no sympathy when I've discussed UPS's proposals. I don't get it, I tell them I know they don't have what I do but my thought isn't bring us down to their level but for them to come up to ours.

That's the problem here. To them we are spoiled and in desperate need of a reality check. Just an example of how the "haves" have successfully devided the "have nots". Pathetic but true.

does your brother who drives for Ground see you as spoiled?

 

[Bagels]

Two tier wont work period...weakens Teamsters down the road. Affordable health care act is our biggest enemy. Think about it...why would UPS offer to cover for health bennies when the federal government will offer them to us? We had BO shoved down our throats during this election year. Sadly, his obamacare will undo what so many teamsters have fought so hard for. The writing is on the wall guys and gals. Besides, $100 a week for family coverage is still cheaper than the bronze plan.

Oh boy, more fallacies. Health insurance premiums have risen more than 60% in the past 8 years; nearly 97% of workers with employer-sponsored health insurance pay a portion of their premium (average is 21-27%, depending on the source) - and the benefits aren't nearly as good as what UPSers enjoy. Couple that with UPS's steadily aging workforce, and it's easy to see why the company wants us to pay a portion of our insurance.

Our health care system is in a crisis that began 30 years ago, when companies began dumping / diluting insurance in favor of larger profits. The burden of the un/underinsured has created a domino effect ... even without ObamaCare, this domino effect is going to see the crisis worsen. At least Obama is trying to do something about it.

I have absolutely no problem paying a small portion of my health insurance. But I expect a big raise (I'm PT) and an increase in the guarantee to 4.5 hours (I'm chased out typically after three hours, and have to beg for 3.5 ... typically I average less than 18 hours/week).

 

[Brown287]

I voted for Obama but he seems to play both sides of the fence when it comes to unions. I honestly thought that with him in office he would make more of a push in making FedEx change its classification. So far nothing has happened.

As far as people looking at UPS as they do as Walmart that's a bit of a stretch. The most leftist I know will be the first to tell me how good we have it. Unfortunately we live in a country where people let their jealousy guide their decisions instead of common sense.

In my family I'm the only one with full medical, thus they look at me with no sympathy when I've discussed UPS's proposals. I don't get it, I tell them I know they don't have what I do but my thought isn't bring us down to their level but for them to come up to ours.

That's the problem here. To them we are spoiled and in desperate need of a reality check. Just an example of how the "haves" have successfully devided the "have nots". Pathetic but true.

does your brother who drives for Ground see you as spoiled?

No but with that said he would love to have just half of what I have.

 

[bbsam]

No but with that said he would love to have just half of what I have.

Right. Who wouldn't?

 

[Ms.PacMan]

Except that UPS wanted to do it years ago when the pension wasn't in as severe of a financial pain as it was when we got out of Central STates and now New England Pension fund. Also, all the upser's under central states would have had that many more years under the new improved pension vs the one that is underfunded by almost 1/2. That's a lose \lose.
I'm guessing if you polled the current central states folks, esp those who are in their upper 40's and early 50's if they could have switched to be under the UPS plan effective in 97, or when it was eventually taken over, they would have preferred it to be 97.

Central staters your opinion?

All true but we stood on that picket line for the part timers and what you say only goes to show how stupid UPS is - what do you think would have happened if UPS had backed off gave in to everything that was asked for for the part timers? Do you think there would have been a strike solely because of the pension?

UPS was greedy and it showed.

 

[Guy Smiley]

Who cares? Don't forget UPS put Jimmy Hoffa in charge of the Teamsters. He won't strike. Besides, any strike again against UPS, would be the end of the teamsters. We the workers, the ones who make this company and the union profitable are the ones who suffer. It's just a sick game.

 

[beentheredonethat]

The most leftist I know will be the first to tell me how good we have it. Unfortunately we live in a country where people let their jealousy guide their decisions instead of common sense.

In my family I'm the only one with full medical, thus they look at me with no sympathy when I've discussed UPS's proposals. I don't get it, I tell them I know they don't have what I do but my thought isn't bring us down to their level but for them to come up to ours.

As far as other companies coming up to our level, I don't see that happening. Name one large corporation (even somewhat large), where they already offer H&W and have their employees pay a portion, then in the last few years they said... tell you what guys.. The company will pay for all of the HW costs, the company will pick up the entire tab. As far as I know, that just isn't happening, if anything it is 100% the other way around.
So based on your own family having no sympathy for you, do you really think you folks can gain sympathy from the public? You can't get it from your own family.

 

[beentheredonethat]

All true but we stood on that picket line for the part timers and what you say only goes to show how stupid UPS is - what do you think would have happened if UPS had backed off gave in to everything that was asked for for the part timers? Do you think there would have been a strike solely because of the pension?

UPS was greedy and it showed.

For your question.. The answer is YES.. it was the pension. (In my opinion, at least the reason was 98% being the pension).

Answer my question, if the 22.3 was so darn important to strike for, why doesn't the teamsters invest time to have that portion of the contract honored?
The fact they don't, means it's not that important.

 

[Brown287]

The most leftist I know will be the first to tell me how good we have it. Unfortunately we live in a country where people let their jealousy guide their decisions instead of common sense.

In my family I'm the only one with full medical, thus they look at me with no sympathy when I've discussed UPS's proposals. I don't get it, I tell them I know they don't have what I do but my thought isn't bring us down to their level but for them to come up to ours.

As far as other companies coming up to our level, I don't see that happening. Name one large corporation (even somewhat large), where they already offer H&W and have their employees pay a portion, then in the last few years they said... tell you what guys.. The company will pay for all of the HW costs, the company will pick up the entire tab. As far as I know, that just isn't happening, if anything it is 100% the other way around.
So based on your own family having no sympathy for you, do you really think you folks can gain sympathy from the public? You can't get it from your own family.

I agree with you ten fold! It's a reality we will face at some point. It's unfortunate but it's not UPS we should blame but society. Scary but the truth is that wages have not kept pace with profits and in fact have seriously gone the other way. UPS is one of the last companies that really take care of their employees. In today's world it just can't last. Sad, very sad!

 

[Guy Smiley]

To further compound your issues, can somebody expound upon me as to why someone should be forced into joining a union? They lost the pension, constant harassment, no freedom, healthcare a question, no accountability it's for grievances, extortion money, they get raises, special order cars, Hollywood suites, should I go on for the fatties?

 

[Bagels]

To further compound your issues, can somebody expound upon me as to why someone should be forced into joining a union? They lost the pension, constant harassment, no freedom, healthcare a question, no accountability it's for grievances, extortion money, they get raises, special order cars, Hollywood suites, should I go on for the fatties?

I agree completely with you that nobody should be forced to join the union. But those who don't shouldn't receive what's covered by the CBA.

So while those who joined the Teamsters earn $32/hour, no-cost health & welfare benefits, those who don't join the union can earn what most FedEx Ground drivers do: $650/week, no health & welfare benefits, purchase the uniform.

 

[TechGrrl]

Well the public voted for obama who supports middle class and unions so if thats what your worried about we should be all set Unless you are concerned about what republicans think

There are quite a few states that have all-GOP governments, and in every one of them, the ALEC-written, plutocrat-funded policies are being put into effect. Right to work is the most damaging thing to union solidarity, and more states are passing laws to allow it. I don't know if you are paying attention, but the GOP has been ignoring the results of the election and continuing down their road of anti-worker legislation since. Go look at what happened in Michigan. Indiana passed right-to-work (really right-to-freeload); Wisconsin will be trying soon.

If the Teamsters expect something similar to '97, where the public was on the side of the worker, it ain't gonna happen this time around. The billionaire funded propaganda campaign against unions has created an impression in the public's mind of fatcat, lazy union workers with plush benefits and overly generous pensions. Meanwhile, the median wage has been falling, and pensions looted, and benefits taken away. Teamsters will be an easy target.

The GOOD news is, you won't be dealing with a Romney administration, with a Romney appointee running the Labor Department. But that will be cold comfort.

 

[Guy Smiley]

In accordance with your post, I agree that we are paid the highest in the industry. At what cost? Unlike most of the teamster officials and operations managements I will tell you that I am grossly underpaid.

 

[Ms.PacMan]

For your question.. The answer is YES.. it was the pension. (In my opinion, at least the reason was 98% being the pension).

Answer my question, if the 22.3 was so darn important to strike for, why doesn't the teamsters invest time to have that portion of the contract honored?
The fact they don't, means it's not that important.

The union members would not have approved a strike over only the pension without hearing any kind of proposal.

You are confusing the Teamster agenda during 1997 with rank and file's agenda. They were not the same. There would have been no strike approval if the pension were the only issue. And if the company had backed down over part time issues during the strike and only left the pension as the reason, then there would have been some serious suspicions from rank and file as to the real reasons the Teamsters were continuing the strike. UPS missed an opportunity to divide the union employees. Most driver's felt like pawns after that strike. The lack of info was from both sides - the Teamsters and UPS. That is the answer to your question.

Here's a question for you - if UPS hates the union so much, why didn't they try to divide it?

 

[beentheredonethat]

The union members would not have approved a strike over only the pension without hearing any kind of proposal.

You are confusing the Teamster agenda during 1997 with rank and file's agenda. They were not the same. There would have been no strike approval if the pension were the only issue. And if the company had backed down over part time issues during the strike and only left the pension as the reason, then there would have been some serious suspicions from rank and file as to the real reasons the Teamsters were continuing the strike. UPS missed an opportunity to divide the union employees. Most driver's felt like pawns after that strike. The lack of info was from both sides - the Teamsters and UPS. That is the answer to your question.

Here's a question for you - if UPS hates the union so much, why didn't they try to divide it?

First, my question is why the teamsters aren't trying to enforce the 22.3 to the extent they struck for 22.3? You really didn't answer that except to say lack of information... So I'll give you an I for INcomplete answer. Try again..

However, I'll answer your question. The premise of your question is wrong (in my opinion).. I don't believe UPS "hates" the union. What UPS is seeing and trying to remedy is a workforce that is extremely well paid with costly benefits and we are competing against competition with much lower hourly pay and their benefits if any are very low cost compared to UPS. UPS realizes in the long term they can't have compensation so much higher then the competition. The union has been saying for decades, that they will organize FDX, but they have failed to do so.
Again, I know people don't trust me because I'm in mgmt. Go to a financial advisor... ask them to make the assumption that UPS continues free health care for our organized labor, and continues to pay the highest pay in the industry. Also assume FDX continues along the way they have been, no union, low pay rates, independent contract model, lower taxes due to it. Ask them if all stays the same, how will UPS do and compare it to how FDX will do. I'm willing to bet, most financial advisors will say that FDX will continue to win market share from UPS and eventually be the dominant carrier in the US. Now ask the same financial advisor, if UPS starts reigning in the cost by sharing HW cost with the workers, keeping a check on wage increases etc. So that the gap of costs doesn't increase, then ask the financial advisor about UPS vs FDX. I'm willing to bet the financial advisor will tell you this will give UPS a better chance of staying the dominant carrier.

 

[Bagels]

In accordance with your post, I agree that we are paid the highest in the industry. At what cost? Unlike most of the teamster officials and operations managements I will tell you that I am grossly underpaid.

Seriously?? A plethora of UPS's competitors are hiring at wages equivalent to $10-$14/hour with no health & welfare benefits and limited paid time off -- yet they're having little difficulty filling these jobs, and the employees are performing at an adequate service level to help those companies grow at a startling pace. In absence of a CBA, markets dictate wages, and if your competition can fill the same jobs for less than a fourth of your cost, then you're clearly grossly overpaying your employees. And you question what the union's done for you? Wow.

 

[PiedmontSteward]

To further compound your issues, can somebody expound upon me as to why someone should be forced into joining a union? They lost the pension, constant harassment, no freedom, healthcare a question, no accountability it's for grievances, extortion money, they get raises, special order cars, Hollywood suites, should I go on for the fatties?

How did we 'lose' the pension? The Central States fiasco was a mess largely caused by deregulation of the trucking industry initiated by the Carter and Reagan administrations. The National Master Freight Agreement went from covering 14,000 trucking companies in 1964 to essentially two by 2004. All of those companies that went belly-up as the independent operator scam took hold were no longer contributing to the fund; UPS felt they were making contributions that weren't going to their employees and the IBT allowed a negotiated withdrawal. Do I like that? No. Do I think it's right? Not really. Is there more going on there than you or I know about? Absolutely.

'Constant harassment' is something you have to be willing to tackle as a rank-and-file member. Once you sock them in the lip with grievances and show you're not scared of them, they almost always back down. Is it an issue? Absolutely - harassment is one of the biggest problems at UPS. But at the end of the day, I can't find you a backbone - maybe you should check eBay.

What do you mean by 'no freedom'? From a union perspective, you are allowed to vote on all local officers every 3 years (depending on by-laws) and the national slate every 5 years. If you're referring to the work place - well, welcome to America. The 1st Amendment does not apply in the American work place; that's in large part due to our culture (especially in the South) of being willing to eat **** for a living and shuffling our feet for the bossman.

I don't know what you're talking about when you say there's no accountability for grievances. There is a system in place that the company periodically abuses to slow things down. Are grievances sometimes put on hold longer than they should be? Absolutely; the system is not perfect. Personally, I think we should be able to strike over grievances deadlocked at the national panels, but that's a right that was taken away from us (unless you're in Local 705) a generation ago by people no longer in charge. Job actions (strikes, slow downs, work-to-rule, sit-downs, etc.) independent of labor contracts expiring have been funneled through the NLRB/grievance process since they were created and formalized, respectfully - that's how the system works. It's designed to slow things down - that's simply the nature of organized labor in the US today. If you don't like it, vote for people that will fix it.

Are the IBT national staff overpaid? Probably. I don't like the fact that some IBT reps draw two or three salaries; but again, if you don't like it, vote for people that will fix it. That's how union democracy works. My local officers/agents haven't had a raise in several years; while my BA is paid fairly well, there are feeder drivers in our local that make more a year than he does and they aren't essentially on call 24/7 and 7 days a week.

Stop getting your anti-union rhetoric from the Koch Brothers and do some reading.

 

[beentheredonethat]

How did we 'lose' the pension? The Central States fiasco was a mess largely caused by deregulation of the trucking industry initiated by the Carter and Reagan administrations. The National Master Freight Agreement went from covering 14,000 trucking companies in 1964 to essentially two by 2004. All of those companies that went belly-up as the independent operator scam took hold were no longer contributing to the fund; UPS felt they were making contributions that weren't going to their employees and the IBT allowed a negotiated withdrawal.

Pensions should be run so that money comes in for that employee from the empoyer, it is pooled and invested so that averages can take over. By that I mean, some people will die early, some people will live a very very long time. Statistics when talking about a single person's life span is not accurate at all. However, with a large group of people, statistics are incredibly accurate knowing the average age a person will live to. So by pooling a large group of people together you can know very accurately the average age, and therefore the average known amount of time a pension has to pay out for the folks covered. Based on that, the folks who run the pension can determine the amount of money coming in, for how long and the anticipated rate of return. That in turn can determine how much they can pay people. If run correctly even if every company went out of business and stopped contributing, all the promised benefits could still be paid out to those retired, (and about to retire). By stating that the reason is due to lower number of workers, means they ran it like a ponzi scheme. ala Bernie Madoff. (or the govt).

 

[Ms.PacMan]

First, my question is why the teamsters aren't trying to enforce the 22.3 to the extent they struck for 22.3? You really didn't answer that except to say lack of information... So I'll give you an I for INcomplete answer. Try again..

Enough with the smart aleck answers. Read my response again and slower.
I did say it - the teamsters didn't care - they used us as pawns and left the part-time issue in the forefront as a smokescreen. The Teamster agenda was the pension fight. The rank and file are the people who cared about the part-time issues. UPS missed an opportunity to bust the union by not agreeing to the part time demands and only leaving the pension as the point of contention.