Has our union proven themselves useless at this point?

[Brownslave688]

I highly doubt the company would even consider half of that match amount. All the while, you are putting YOUR money into your 401k account.

Now consider your pension. All monies are contracted and paid by UPS through your wages, not your paycheck. A pension will net you an extremely higher amount of money over a 30 year period. I've been retired for almost 4 years and in that time I've received almost $170,000 in wages. A 401k account would never make you that kind of money even if you could possibly max out your contribution. Pension money trumps 401k money in every scenario, period.

A conservative estimate will tell you that for every 7-8 years in the stock market you CAN double your money. Doesn't mean you will, only that it's an average since the beginning of the NYSE. When I got into the 401k in 1991, the S & P 500 was at 397. Today it's over 2021. Not bad, but not nearly the kind of money 23 years of my pension would've given me over that same time, nearly $1,000,000.00 is what the pension would've paid me. I'll take the pension over the 401k any day for all the reasons outlined in my post.

You guys that think your 401k will save you if you don't get a pension are in deep doo-doo!

Lol it's going to take me almost 20 years in retirement just to see the money ups put into the pension for me. That's not taking any growth into account.

I should have somewhere around 5-7 million between wife and I investments. I think I'll be ok. If I was able to take the monies ups gives the union and put that in my 401k? Well it'd be more like 10 million that I'd retire with.

Like I've said before there's no way in hell I'm living long enough to see the return on my pension that I would of had I simply been given control of that money from the start.

 

[realbrown1]

I highly doubt the company would even consider half of that match amount. All the while, you are putting YOUR money into your 401k account.

Now consider your pension. All monies are contracted and paid by UPS through your wages, not your paycheck. A pension will net you an extremely higher amount of money over a 30 year period. I've been retired for almost 4 years and in that time I've received almost $170,000 in wages. A 401k account would never make you that kind of money even if you could possibly max out your contribution. Pension money trumps 401k money in every scenario, period.

A conservative estimate will tell you that for every 7-8 years in the stock market you CAN double your money. Doesn't mean you will, only that it's an average since the beginning of the NYSE. When I got into the 401k in 1991, the S & P 500 was at 397. Today it's over 2021. Not bad, but not nearly the kind of money 23 years of my pension would've given me over that same time, nearly $1,000,000.00 is what the pension would've paid me. I'll take the pension over the 401k any day for all the reasons outlined in my post.

You guys that think your 401k will save you if you don't get a pension are in deep doo-doo!

xexys, you are way wrong on the 401k generating the kind of income of the pension, even if you max it out.
I haven't even come close to maxing out the 401k, but when you count the rising stock market, the rise in stock prices that I own in my 401k, the reinvested dividents and my own contributions to my 401k, my 401k may be my #1 retirement plan if the market doesn't totally tank unexpectedly between now and 13 years.
Their are reasons for my statement of this. First, I get to choose how my moneys are invested, not someone else. Second, all of my money I invest in my 401k are working for only me, not other orphan teamsters. And 3rd, after retirement, I plan on taking out about 1/3 of my dividend income in my 401k every year. Use some of the rest to pay the income taxes from withdrawing moneys from my plan, and then reinvest the rest to continue to grow my 401k. I always hold about 10% or 20% in cash reserves, so that if the market does tank, I can buy cheap. Gotta love the game.

 

[Xexys]

Lol it's going to take me almost 20 years in retirement just to see the money ups put into the pension for me. That's not taking any growth into account.

I should have somewhere around 5-7 million between wife and I investments. I think I'll be ok. If I was able to take the monies ups gives the union and put that in my 401k? Well it'd be more like 10 million that I'd retire with.

Like I've said before there's no way in hell I'm living long enough to see the return on my pension that I would of had I simply been given control of that money from the start.

You must've flunked math in grade school. You start with zero in your 401k, with a pension you start with a fixed amount, and that fixed amount is there every year, year after year. You supplement your pension with the 401k, you don't rely on the stock market to fund your retirement, it's just a bonus and the bonus is only paper until you realize it with real money when you take it out.

You speak like you want the company to pay you up front with your pension money that you may or may not live to see and then use that money to START your 401k. Nobody said anything about spouses helping here, this is a one person scenario.

Your 5-7 million between your wife and yourself is quite impressive, but hardly the norm here in the world of UPS wages when you take into account most of us have mortgages and car payments. It's funny, I had a rural route in neighborhoods with mostly half to three quarter million dollar homes. I never saw those people as they were both so busy with their jobs to pay for their mortgages.

Gone are the days when couples took out a mortgage for 30 years and never refinanced. With the divorce rate the way it is, I simply don't see it happening that most of these people pay off their houses in 20-30 years.

Your situation is not the norm and I'm happy for you but math is math and in no way is a 401k a better guaranteed investment than a guaranteed pension.

 

[Brownslave688]

You must've flunked math in grade school. You start with zero in your 401k, with a pension you start with a fixed amount, and that fixed amount is there every year, year after year. You supplement your pension with the 401k, you don't rely on the stock market to fund your retirement, it's just a bonus and the bonus is only paper until you realize it with real money when you take it out.

You speak like you want the company to pay you up front with your pension money that you may or may not live to see and then use that money to START your 401k. Nobody said anything about spouses helping here, this is a one person scenario.

Your 5-7 million between your wife and yourself is quite impressive, but hardly the norm here in the world of UPS wages when you take into account most of us have mortgages and car payments. It's funny, I had a rural route in neighborhoods with mostly half to three quarter million dollar homes. I never saw those people as they were both so busy with their jobs to pay for their mortgages.

Gone are the days when couples took out a mortgage for 30 years and never refinanced. With the divorce rate the way it is, I simply don't see it happening that most of these people pay off their houses in 20-30 years.

Your situation is not the norm and I'm happy for you but math is math and in no way is a 401k a better guaranteed investment than a guaranteed pension.

Simple question. How much does ups put towards your pension every week? This is a negotiated amount.

Take that money and put it into a 401k. It's simple you'll end up with way more than you'd ever see through your pension.

More importantly it's your money to do with as you please. Most people are too scared or simple too dumb to take control of their retirement. It's why pensions and SS were created in the first place.

 

[Xexys]

Simple question. How much does ups put towards your pension every week? This is a negotiated amount.

Take that money and put it into a 401k. It's simple you'll end up with way more than you'd ever see through your pension.

More importantly it's your money to do with as you please. Most people are too scared or simple too dumb to take control of their retirement. It's why pensions and SS were created in the first place.

I understand the concept of compounding interest. You're mixing apples with oranges here. You must take the two and separate them then maybe you'll understand what I'm trying to say here. Not only that, but in your scenario you would be subjecting your guaranteed pension money to losses.

Hell, I don't think many people are as aggressive as I was and still am with my allocations of my 401k. I'm a gambler and all my monies are in blue chips and always have been since I started. It has served me well but it's still just a number until I take the money out.

I made a huge mistake of marrying a women that was high maintenance. After my divorce, I had to make a deal with her and that deal required me to buy her out of her debt. Mind you, she bought my deal (dumb girl) and I ended up with everything but had to pay down her secret credit cards which forced me to refinance. I don't think I'm the only one at UPS that has/had been put in this same scenario. Many men I know throughout my career got divorces with not such a deal as mine. Lucky thing for me was I knew she was cheating on me and I figured she would buy the bait I flashed in front of her and she did. I kept the house, my full pension and all of my 401k just because she was afraid I would out her in court of her infidelities. I made out like a fat rat! Plus, she didn't fight me at all as we did our divorce all from online. Dang thing only cost me $526.00!

Now I live in a different state, rent out my home in my last state which covers the refinanced mortgage and the RV you see in my avatar. Not quite 5-7 million like you but with my steady income of my pension I will be able to hold onto my 401k until I'm forced to take it out when I turn 70 and a half. Compounding interest is a beautiful thing indeed!

 

[Xexys]

xexys, you are way wrong on the 401k generating the kind of income of the pension, even if you max it out.
I haven't even come close to maxing out the 401k, but when you count the rising stock market, the rise in stock prices that I own in my 401k, the reinvested dividents and my own contributions to my 401k, my 401k may be my #1 retirement plan if the market doesn't totally tank unexpectedly between now and 13 years.
Their are reasons for my statement of this. First, I get to choose how my moneys are invested, not someone else. Second, all of my money I invest in my 401k are working for only me, not other orphan teamsters. And 3rd, after retirement, I plan on taking out about 1/3 of my dividend income in my 401k every year. Use some of the rest to pay the income taxes from withdrawing moneys from my plan, and then reinvest the rest to continue to grow my 401k. I always hold about 10% or 20% in cash reserves, so that if the market does tank, I can buy cheap. Gotta love the game.

I disagree. I lived in a state where I was not able to max out my 401k. On top of that I had already been at UPS 7 years before the 401k was even offered to us. Sure, I got to throw the thrift plan at the Class A UPS shares but still I got a slow start. I was lucky to be able to put 5% of my money in to the 401k. Not everyone can max their contributions like some of you.

Simply put, everyone's situation is different and in my situation my pension will out earn my 401k. I'm happy for you guys that have been able to throw 17% and more at your 401k. One other tidbit of information for you here. I'm not sure about if you can keep your self managed account after retiring, but you certainly cannot start one up after retiring. Maybe someone can enlighten us on that note. I tried to start the self managed account after retiring because I felt I had more time as a retiree to put the time into it. I tried it once while still working and felt at the time that I would use it after retiring and stopped it. Maybe someone will chime in here and fill in the blanks.

Not everyone gets to live in states where the property taxes aren't $6300.00 for a quarter acre of land and a 60 year old house. New Jersey is pricey to say the least to live in and when you couple that with a spend happy wife that has nothing to do but buy purses and shoes for 20 years...well you can see that my situation is quite different.

 

[Brownslave688]

Not only that, but in your scenario you would be subjecting your guaranteed pension money to losses.

You think your pension is guaranteed? Not checked out the news lately?

How do you think pension money grows? Same as a 401k. If the market crashes that hard we have bigger problems. Also where a 401k is an advantage is you can choose to pull out less if the market crashes. Pensions cant do this so they lose big during market downturns.

I'll seperate the pension monies from the 401k. If you work 35 years with today's contributions and 7-8% growth. You'd be looking at somewhere between 2-2.5 million in the bank when you retire. That's not including possible future gains that you have control of.

At a 4k a month pension you'd have to live over 40 years in retirement to see the low end of that back in pension money. These are not unreasonable numbers.

 

[Brownslave688]

Not everyone gets to live in states where the property taxes aren't $6300.00 for a quarter acre of land and a 60 year old house. New Jersey is pricey to say the least to live in and when you couple that with a spend happy wife that has nothing to do but buy purses and shoes for 20 years...well you can see that my situation is quite different.

Ok here's the thing. We could push the union to do what we want. My brothers employers automatically puts 12% of his earnings into his retirement account. Why don't we push ups to do the same?

You wouldn't have to put in anything. They just automatically do it. Your employer can put something like 50k a year into your 401k on your behalf. That doesn't change the almost 20k a year you can still put in.

 

[Mr. Marshall]

The thing that bothers me the most about our union is that most of the people posting on this thread (me included) are full time and make "well above" the industry average which is very true....the problem that this is built on the back of the part timers who are literally going to be flirting with minimum wage laws by the end of the current contract. When I see the unions protesting for fast food workers to make $15 an hour I get mad because they are making promises they cannot keep if the Teamsters cannot get our workers more than $10 for a job that is MUCH harder than any fast food job every will be. I started at $9 an hour 20 years ago and people are now starting at $10. This is insane and I feel that the union has sold out every new hire just to artificially pay full timers.

 

[Brownslave688]

The thing that bothers me the most about our union is that most of the people posting on this thread (me included) are full time and make "well above" the industry average which is very true....the problem that this is built on the back of the part timers who are literally going to be flirting with minimum wage laws by the end of the current contract. When I see the unions protesting for fast food workers to make $15 an hour I get mad because they are making promises they cannot keep if the Teamsters cannot get our workers more than $10 for a job that is MUCH harder than any fast food job every will be. I started at $9 an hour 20 years ago and people are now starting at $10. This is insane and I feel that the union has sold out every new hire just to artificially pay full timers.

You're right they are underpaid. The BA and I got into it because all the Union pushed was $1.50 starting pay increase. That wasn't the truth behind all the numbers. 4 year progression was less than 75 cent raise I think and a lot less than general wage increases.


However you have to look at total compensation. Healthcare and pension included.

 

[ski or die]

I fought against this tier wage system all the way back in the 70's. I tried to explain that having 2 different employees doing the same job and a big difference in wage would cause problems. Management looked it as "if I can get rid of this seniority employee, I can hire 2 because the beginning wage scale is 1/2 his rate". At that point, it seemed as it was a feather in management cap for every seniority employee that could get rid of. Which the managers felt, I am working a smaller payroll and in turn helping themselves for their own promotions and raises.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I think this thread should be closed 10 point. It's not going anywhere. All it's going to do is leave more hard feelings.

I say "let it ride".

Only 3 people have hard feelings.

Reason being.... they lack any semblance of emotional maturity.



-Bug-

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I fought against this tier wage system all the way back in the 70's.

Local 710 had a "tier" wage system at UPS.... back in the 70's ??

Are you sure about that ?



-Bug-

 

[oldngray]

I thought the PT lower wage rate started in 1981.

 

[Bubblehead]

I say "let it ride".

Only 3 people have hard feelings.

Reason being.... they lack any semblance of emotional maturity.



-Bug-

I hope I never grow up....like you.

 

[Anonymous 11]

I say "let it ride".

Only 3 people have hard feelings.

Reason being.... they lack any semblance of emotional maturity.



-Bug-

We are all brothers and sisters. If I had to go through life I couldn't throw stones at anyone because it would come back and hit me right in the eye. At 16 as a troubled homeless youth I found a dude named Jesus. Actually my grandmother took me in off the streets and taught me about him. I figured out how to forgive. I figured out how to find peace or actually I was put on the path to it. Peace will take a lifetime I'm afraid and I'd also like to attain righteousness. This will also take a lifetime I'm afraid. I will surly fall short of both goals but I will be loyal to the small handful of friends that I can truly love as brothers. That and my two children and a wife that stays with me.

Yea if I ever want to throw a stone I'll surly feel one back in my head.

God bless you all. Smile Jesus loves you and as long as you are a good person nothing on a message board ever really means anything.

 

[BigDaddyO8a]

1982 two tier

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

1982 two tier

2018 Two tier extended to package drivers.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

We are all brothers and sisters. If I had to go through life I couldn't throw stones at anyone because it would come back and hit me right in the eye. At 16 as a troubled homeless youth I found a dude named Jesus. Actually my grandmother took me in off the streets and taught me about him. I figured out how to forgive. I figured out how to find peace or actually I was put on the path to it. Peace will take a lifetime I'm afraid and I'd also like to attain righteousness. This will also take a lifetime I'm afraid. I will surly fall short of both goals but I will be loyal to the small handful of friends that I can truly love as brothers. That and my two children and a wife that stays with me.

Yea if I ever want to throw a stone I'll surly feel one back in my head.

God bless you all. Smile Jesus loves you and as long as you are a good person nothing on a message board ever really means anything.

Your post gave me reason for reflection.

Thanks.



-Bug-

 

[BigUnionGuy]

2018 Two tier extended to package drivers.

Seems like you were saying that, during the last negotiations.

Isn't a 4 year progression enough ?



-Bug-