Personal and Economic Freedom for Individuals

[Sportello]

Exchange of Ideas and Knowledge.
Go back and read your posts.
All you have done is knock down anything posted if you don't agree with it.
Not one idea have you put forth.

I believe that all citizens should pay taxes if they make over a living wage. Those taxes should provide for their health and security
I believe all citizens should be given a free education to the extent they can benefit from it
I believe all citizens should have free, pure water and healthcare
I believe those who are wealthy beyond their needs should contribute to the welfare of those less fortunate, according to their means
I believe we should engage in equal trade.
I believe we should strive to make all humans equal in their living conditions

the list could go on....


I guess you could say I believe in Sharia.

 

[BrownArmy]

Exchange of Ideas and Knowledge...

Back to the Front:

'A Libertarian values and believes in personal and economic freedom for individuals'.

Your words.

Again, I believe in the same things, but I come to very different conclusions.

So, I'm the guy who's wrong?

 

[Sportello]

Actually, there were 3 pages of pretty good discussion and exchange of ideas before you and @bbsam showed up.
You two seem to be hell bent on disrupting any exchange of ideas.
Ya don't seem interested in presenting any ideas ... just attacking anyone you don't agree with.

Dammit, I just read three pages of crap that doesn't back up what you claimed was true.

 

[rickyb]

And some people should 'suffer'.
The US Government rewards losers and non-achievers and punishes the people who work hard and achieve good things for society.

I seriously wonder what our society and government is doing by propping up the "least-fit" members and 'funding' these least-fit citizens to have more children.

close.

the US government punishes everyone but the extremely rich and rewards the people who are already extremely rich.

im not exactly sure what you call this, but hopefully someone here can honestly define that.

and just logically thinking, why would the government reward the poor which you claim? they have no money for political influence, and they have been poorly politically organized since the mid 1970s.

 

[Catatonic]

Again, I believe in the same things, but I come to very different conclusions.

So, I'm the guy who's wrong?

I don't know.

In fact I don't know what you are getting at.
If I said you were wrong, I apologize.

 

[rickyb]

chomsky has a ton of youtube videos on american libertarianism.

 

[BrownArmy]

chomsky has a ton of youtube videos on american libertarianism.

It's all about context.

 

[rickyb]

I was often put in groups/teams at UPS specifically to encourage exchange of ideas and to keep the discussion on track towards productive output.
If a team of UPSers were to conduct themselves like posters in Current Events do ... they would be reprimanded and probably disciplined.

I just realized tonight that the typical poster in Current Events does not care about the exchange of ideas or knowledge and are, as apparently in your case, more interested in just knocking heads and practice being Shawn Hannity.

I don't believe that discussions have to be like Current Events but unfortunately, as @cheryl has set up the site, this is the only forum to discuss and exchange ideas and knowledge.

i agree. i noticed immediately when i started browncafe that it was a culture of humiliation.

im probably also more of a bully on here than i am in real life. im not a bully in the real world, these days i try and look out for guys who get picked on. i used to be a prolific bully in elementary school.

anyways back to the topic at hand.

 

[rickyb]

It's all about context.

i think its because US has always had a powerful business class and that the left was and is still basically destroyed that theres ideas of letting big corporations do whatever they want and everything will be wonderful.

i wonder how EU countries feel about things like this.

 

[Catatonic]

I believe that all citizens should pay taxes if they make over a living wage.
Those taxes should provide for their health and security.
I believe all citizens should be given a free education to the extent they can benefit from it
I believe all citizens should have free, pure water and healthcare
I believe those who are wealthy beyond their needs should contribute to the welfare of those less fortunate, according to their means
I believe we should engage in equal trade.
I believe we should strive to make all humans equal in their living conditions

the list could go on....


I guess you could say I believe in Sharia.

I believe that all citizens should pay taxes if they make over a living wage. I agree
Those taxes should provide for their health and security. I don't agree with that only ... there are many things those taxes should be used for.
I believe all citizens should be given a free education to the extent they can benefit from it - I don't agree with that if you mean in a school where one gets a degree or certificate. I believe citizens should have access to education (beyond High School) if it is to benefit and serve the needs of society. Anything that can be learned in schools can be learned by the individual going to the library or go on-line.
I believe all citizens should have free, pure water and healthcare - Water - Nope ... I live out in the country to be away from others. I don't think the government should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars just so I can have pure clean water.
Healthcare: Yep, I believe in free reasonable healthcare for both physical and mental health concerns.
I believe those who are wealthy beyond their needs should contribute to the welfare of those less fortunate, according to their means - Not hardly and what the heck are needs and means?
I believe that taxes should be progressive and should be used for the improvement of society.
I believe that no taxes of any kind should be capped.
Wealth should be taxed as well as income.
The fact that wealth is not taxed is a big problem.
I believe we should engage in equal trade. OK, I guess. Not sure what that means. I do believe in reciprocal tariffs if that's what you mean.
I believe we should strive to make all humans equal in their living conditions. Nope, I find that very idea very unworkable and will destroy initiative. Maybe we are not that far apart on this idea if the concept was expanded to understand what elements should be equal.

Thank you for the sharing your beliefs!
They stimulated me and I got a lot of satisfaction in thinking through your ideas through and comparing to my beliefs.
We should get together over a few drinks and have a lively discussion.

 

[Catatonic]

i agree. i noticed immediately when i started browncafe that it was a culture of humiliation.

im probably also more of a bully on here than i am in real life. im not a bully in the real world, these days i try and look out for guys who get picked on. i used to be a prolific bully in elementary school.

anyways back to the topic at hand.

Noam Chomsky is always a good read or listen. His book on US Hegemony is my favorite of his.
A group of us discussed this book on our lunch breaks over a 3 - 4 month period. A lot of lively discussions.

As an aside: I used to work on a project as a student at Ga Tech with Noam through my mentor and advisor Dr Goff. Noam was in charge of this AI project while he was at MIT. Noam was one of the early pioneers in the area of AI specializing in Linguistic analysis and the emergence of I.
I enjoyed the I, Robot book and movie which was loosely in this area of thought.

 

[BrownArmy]

i think its because US has always had a powerful business class and that the left was and is still basically destroyed that theres ideas of letting big corporations do whatever they want and everything will be wonderful.

i wonder how EU countries feel about things like this.

I meant the 'context' of the thread.

By all means, carry on.

 

[Catatonic]

american libertarianism is a perversion of traditional libertarianism. american libertarians want to eliminate the government and replace it with nothing as a counter weight to corporate power. so its essentially corporate tyranny.

Never heard that before!
I am an American and a Libertarian (whatever one is) but I don't think I am an American Libertarian according to your definition.
I don't hate Corporations but I sure despise them and think they should closely watched.
Too bad the media does not spend more of their time investigating Corporations because they are to be feared almost as much as a Central Government.
I also strongly disagree with Corporations having rights as individuals. The SCOTUS has done many things wrong but this is one of the worse.

 

[newfie]

Are there some who will abuse the system.

how do you define abuse. the conservative philosophy has always been that giving them support without making them earn it causes them to be lazy underachievers. As such they are abusers but not in the classic sense .

 

[Sportello]

I'm too tired to fix the formatting, but I'm black & blue, [COLOR=#ff0000]@Monkey Butt[/COLOR] is red, as it should be.

Mods, feel free to fix


I believe that all citizens should pay taxes if they make over a living wage. I agree
Those taxes should provide for their health and security. I don't agree with that only ... there are many things those taxes should be used for.
If everyone is healthy and safe, there is little else that is needed.
I believe all citizens should be given a free education to the extent they can benefit from it - I don't agree with that if you mean in a school where one gets a degree or certificate. I believe citizens should have access to education (beyond High School) if it is to benefit and serve the needs of society. Anything that can be learned in schools can be learned by the individual going to the library or go on-line.
I'd like there to be doctors. I think we really agree on this.
I believe all citizens should have free, pure water and healthcare - Water - Nope ... I live out in the country to be away from others. I don't think the government should spend hundreds of thousands of dollars just so I can have pure clean water.
Healthcare: Yep, I believe in free reasonable healthcare for both physical and mental health concerns.

I didn't say water in the desert or downstream from the hog farm. i just said clean water...think Flint, or South Side Chicago. Our villages, towns and cities should provide water and it should be free to the point of sustaining a healthy life. I don't know offhand how many gallons/day that is, but whatever it is, ....free.
I believe those who are wealthy beyond their needs should contribute to the welfare of those less fortunate, according to their means - Not hardly and what the heck are needs and means? Needs are food, clothing, domicile, means is the excess wealth one has accumulated through innovation
I believe that taxes should be progressive and should be used for the improvement of society.
Agree
I believe that no taxes of any kind should be capped.
Agree
Wealth should be taxed as well as income.
To what extent? Should I be taxed over and over because I managed to save a certain amount of capital until I have nothing?

The fact that wealth is not taxed is a big problem.

If I saved a million dollars, and have held onto that in my old age, should I be taxed 10% ($100k) a year until my savings are gone?
I believe we should engage in equal trade. OK, I guess. Not sure what that means. I do believe in reciprocal tariffs if that's what you mean.

No, I mean that trade should be free between equal partners (US=Great Britain), but tilted to the advantage of unequal partners (US>Viet Nam)
I believe we should strive to make all humans equal in their living conditions. Nope, I find that very idea very unworkable and will destroy initiative. Maybe we are not that far apart on this idea if the concept was expanded to understand what elements should be equal.

You piss enough people off, they gonna come after you. I think that there is an equilibrium where we *might* all get by. That's all anyone should be looking for, to just get by...

Thank you for the sharing your beliefs!
They stimulated me and I got a lot of satisfaction in thinking through your ideas through and comparing to my beliefs.
We should get together over a few drinks and have a lively discussion.

I had to blow though your part of the country last time South, didn't have a minute to spare, and was not fond of Atlanta area traffic, even though I stayed outside of town. I don't think we are that far apart. I'd like to think we are both looking to improve the world for our offspring, and like a little Beefheart on the side.

 

[Sportello]

This goes out to the formally red assed money

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

the conservative philosophy has always been that giving them support without making them earn it causes them to be lazy underachievers. As such they are abusers but not in the classic sense .

Now you're getting it! Since "conservatives" have done diddly squat to curtail entitlement programs they must actually want them to be lazy underachievers, curious eh? If only you would follow this rabbit hole a little deeper....

 

[Catatonic]

This goes out to the formally red assed money

Love me some Capt Beefheart.
I use to listen to him and Zappa a lot during the 60's and 70's.
Now I'm more into his worst album (according to him).

 

[bbsam]

Actually, there were 3 pages of pretty good discussion and exchange of ideas before you and @bbsam showed up.
You two seem to be hell bent on disrupting any exchange of ideas.
Ya don't seem interested in presenting any ideas ... just attacking anyone you don't agree with.

I showed up on page 1

 

[Catatonic]

I showed up on page 1

I remember and it was a good interchange of ideas.