Union / Fedex / UPS - An Analogy

[Livin the Dream?]

because the fed-ex ground drivers have families to feed and they can't afford a work stoppage, because they can't save enough money to put away for a strike?

Come on - I'm serious!

 

[BLACKBOX]

I don't think we need to worry about UPS based on what happened to the auto industry because outside of the fact that both industries are unionized, the business models are quite different. .

I think you're missing the point I was trying to get across. UPS will try and see how they can manipulate the union using the economic situations the auto industry is facing.

Even though there is an agreement between the Teamsters and UPS, who's to say there is'nt a restructure of the NMA in the near future? There are no restrictions preventing that.

 

[MrFedEx]

UPS wins big if FedEx Express goes union and even bigger if Ground does too. Fred S has enjoyed an illicit competitive advantage for a very long time. The level playing field argument has a lot of merit because FedEx has saved hundreds of millions in labor costs, meaning they can almost always undercut UPS on rates.

As long as Ground drivers are "subcontractors" and independent, they won't be able to organize. That's why UPS needs to really pay attention when the case for employee vs non-employee eventually goes to the Supreme Court, and that's where it seems to be headed.

Returning to the race car analogy, the FedEx car would have a head start, the team owner would get a huge payout compared to the driver, and the driver would have to provide his own race car, insurance, and fuel (in the case of Ground). Fred could also afford to subsidize ticket sales and fill the stands with customers because he could charge less for admission.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to get across. UPS will try and see how they can manipulate the union using the economic situations the auto industry is facing.

Even though there is an agreement between the Teamsters and UPS, who's to say there is'nt a restructure of the NMA in the near future? There are no restrictions preventing that.

You are completely correct - there is nothing in the world that cannot be re-negotiated.

The LIKELYHOOD, however....

 

[jimstud]

I think you're missing the point I was trying to get across. UPS will try and see how they can manipulate the union using the economic situations the auto industry is facing.

Even though there is an agreement between the Teamsters and UPS, who's to say there is'nt a restructure of the NMA in the near future? There are no restrictions preventing that.

it would be pretty hard for ups to try and restructure our contract considering the fact they are still turning a huge profit

 

[Livin the Dream?]

UPS wins big if FedEx Express goes union and even bigger if Ground does too. Fred S has enjoyed an illicit competitive advantage for a very long time. The level playing field argument has a lot of merit because FedEx has saved hundreds of millions in labor costs, meaning they can almost always undercut UPS on rates.

As long as Ground drivers are "subcontractors" and independent, they won't be able to organize. That's why UPS needs to really pay attention when the case for employee vs non-employee eventually goes to the Supreme Court, and that's where it seems to be headed.

Returning to the race car analogy, the FedEx car would have a head start, the team owner would get a huge payout compared to the driver, and the driver would have to provide his own race car, insurance, and fuel (in the case of Ground). Fred could also afford to subsidize ticket sales and fill the stands with customers because he could charge less for admission.

Wish you were here.

 

[bluehdmc]

Your brother in Law does not work for FedEx in any way. He works for a company that does sub-contractor work for FedEx.

Did you brother in law know what he was going to be paid by this sub-contractor before he took the job?

He did?

Then he cannot complain.

Or he can quit & go work somewhere else. See how that works?

It's so easy to tell someone to quit. Maybe he would if he didn't have financial obligations. The highest unemployment rates in how many years? Do you think if unemployment was 1 or 2% he wouldn't quit?
Do you think if unemployment was 1 or 2% the sub-contractor he works for wouldn't pay better, offer benefits and other "perks" to get employees? Now unemployment is high, so the subcontractor can pick who he hires and pays as little as he can.

Living the Dream, you ask why UPS and the Teamsters are the only ones who want to unionize FedEx. Did you ever think there were employees at Fedex that would welcome a union. Maybe they don't expess their feelings at work because of retaliation. Yes we all know retaliation is illegal, we also know there are ways around it.

I have another question for you LTD, why are you working for UPS? Could it be the pay and the benefits? Why don't you go to work for Fedex?

Fedex won one round in court, which will be appealled, they've lost how many other decisions about the "contractor model' previously, and have appealed those decisions. And don't think Fedex isn't spending how many millions of dollars lobbying, etc.

 

[evilleace]

We are giving the fedex employees the help they need as they have been beaten down on this before and just why are you so opposed to a level playing field LTD?

 

[1989]

Huh wha? Help me understand - A stronger pension fund helps who ? It makes us a better company how?

If YRCW goes under, couldn't that mean another UPS pension bailout?

 

[MrFedEx]

Wish you were here.

I'm right there in the Northern Hemisphere. Is this your view? Please explain to me how I am so far removed from reality.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

I appreciate what you write. I appreciate what you feel, what you say. We are both looking at the same thing, and seeing different results. I say this with respect for your viewpoint.

It's so easy to tell someone to quit. Maybe he would if he didn't have financial obligations. The highest unemployment rates in how many years? Do you think if unemployment was 1 or 2% he wouldn't quit?

I have no idea.

Do you think if unemployment was 1 or 2% the sub-contractor he works for wouldn't pay better, offer benefits and other "perks" to get employees? Now unemployment is high, so the subcontractor can pick who he hires and pays as little as he can.

What you describe perfectly is CAPITALISM. Free market. Supply & demand. Things I believe in as completely as the sun rising tomorrow.

Living the Dream, you ask why UPS and the Teamsters are the only ones who want to unionize FedEx. Did you ever think there were employees at Fedex that would welcome a union. Maybe they don't expess their feelings at work because of retaliation. Yes we all know retaliation is illegal, we also know there are ways around it.

Invalid - We are just guessing that they are repressed, then, and we are rescuing them?

I have another question for you LTD, why are you working for UPS? Could it be the pay and the benefits? Why don't you go to work for Fedex?

This is the second time someone asked this. The question is on pay with my young daughter saying "well, if you like UPS so much, why don't you marry it?" My arguments are valid regardless of where I work, I just happen to work at UPS.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

We are giving the fedex employees the help they need as they have been beaten down on this before and just why are you so opposed to a level playing field LTD?

I'm not at all opposed to a level playing field. I am disturbed when poeple believe there is such a thing. There isn't. Life isn't fair. You play with the cards you've been dealt. All things I learned by the time I was 6.

You have to pick one, however - are you tryingh to level a playing field, or are you just trying to hobble the competition with the same baggage you have? There is a difference.

Because, have no doubt - the only reason UPS is pushing so hard to eliminate FedEx's IC model is because UPS didn't think of it first. Don't for a moment doubt - If UPS had the opportunity to by some way rid itself of the union, it would immediately duplicate the same model. It would be fiscally irresponsible if it did not.

 

[Brown287]

First off hes my brother not my brother-in law, secondly Im reffering to you "Living The Dream". Perhaps my brother too would like to live the dream, but you are correct in who he works for that is why I pointed that out. Its the fact that Fed-Ex goes out of its way to PREVENT its employees even the chance to go union thats the problem. Really what are they afraid of, the ball is in their court, if they dont want a union they need to compinsate its employees better. Wall-Mart has the highest paid truckers in the industry, ask yourself why that is. Its because they dont want thier truckers to go union. Pretty cut and dry. The difference between you and I is that I think unions can be very beneficial, as well as devestaing, but thats why employees should be given the oportunity to decide for themselves.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I'm not at all opposed to a level playing field. I am disturbed when poeple believe there is such a thing. There isn't. Life isn't fair. You play with the cards you've been dealt. All things I learned by the time I was 6.

Life is what we make of it. People that say that life isn't fair and actually believes it are either the ones that help create situations that aren't fair or are the ones that just sit back and accept it without a fight.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

First off hes my brother not my brother-in law, secondly Im reffering to you "Living The Dream". Perhaps my brother too would like to live the dream, but you are correct in who he works for that is why I pointed that out. Its the fact that Fed-Ex goes out of its way to PREVENT its employees even the chance to go union thats the problem. Really what are they afraid of, the ball is in their court, if they dont want a union they need to compinsate its employees better. Wall-Mart has the highest paid truckers in the industry, ask yourself why that is. Its because they dont want thier truckers to go union. Pretty cut and dry. The difference between you and I is that I think unions can be very beneficial, as well as devestaing, but thats why employees should be given the oportunity to decide for themselves.

Everything you said there, I completely, 100% agree with. I believe any employee of FedEx that wants to become union should have the opportunity. I could not agree more.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever - but you appear to have swallowed the "Unionize FedEx" line propagated by UPS/Teamsters hook, line & sinker. I've NEVER MET a FedEx employee that wanted to become union. And the only people complaining about how FedEx compensates its' Independent contractors is..............UPS and the Teamsters.

What is happening, you know it, I know it, hell, even 705RED knows it - UPS knows it cannot compete by adjusting employee compensation, thanks to the Union. So UPS wants to hobble its' competitors with the same inflexibility. This whole thing can be reduced to that - read it again -

UPS knows it cannot compete by adjusting employee compensation, thanks to the Union. So UPS wants to hobble its' competitors with the same inflexibility.

That is it. That is the whole thing. That is the beginning, middle, end. For you, anyone, to sit there saying you are just looking out for my fellow man, just trying to make sure my competitor/driver buddies can pay the bills, they deserve benefits, blah blah, blah, you are simply full of excrement. Or you are unintelligent. Or you are just a sheep. Pick one.

Because the IC model FedEx uses is valid. It is legal. And the people making the most noise to change it are NOT FedEx ICs, but UPS and the Teamsters. That fact alone should make you pause.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

Life is what we make of it. People that say that life isn't fair and actually believes it are either the ones that help create situations that aren't fair or are the ones that just sit back and accept it without a fight.

The successful people are the ones that don't expect life to be fair, don't waste time fighting to make it fair. The successful ones understand that looking for fairness wastes time.

The successful ones are those that realize it is what it is, and do what is necessary to succeed anyway.

Nice try, though.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

It is legal at the moment. To use an extreme example, slavery was once legal too. Legality does not mean something is either right or moral.

I do agree that UPSers want this resolved with an outcome favorable to them, out of self interest. But to think that people are not also capable of having altruistic intentions is wrong.

And let's remember, if UPS is trying to persuade the government to pass laws in it's favor, so is FedEx. They both, in their own way, are "rent seekers". To heap scorn solely on UPS is not looking at the big picture.

Why does the government allow unions? Because it realizes that allowing the legal fiction of the corporation as an "individual" to represent multiple owners (the shareholders), the government than must allow a union to act as the "individual" who negotiaites his wages with said employer. Why? Not out of fairness, but because people have the right to associate and gather with those who share their interests.

It would seem to me that FedEx is trying to circumvent their employee's (just calling a spade a spade here, I know they are "independent" contractors) rights of unionizing but still want their own right to be a "union" of owners. Or in other words, a corporation.

The contractor model is the tool they are using to accomplish this circumvention.

 

[trplnkl]

I'm not at all opposed to a level playing field. I am disturbed when poeple believe there is such a thing. There isn't. Life isn't fair. You play with the cards you've been dealt. All things I learned by the time I was 6.

You have to pick one, however - are you tryingh to level a playing field, or are you just trying to hobble the competition with the same baggage you have? There is a difference.

Because, have no doubt - the only reason UPS is pushing so hard to eliminate FedEx's IC model is because UPS didn't think of it first. Don't for a moment doubt - If UPS had the opportunity to by some way rid itself of the union, it would immediately duplicate the same model. It would be fiscally irresponsible if it did not.

When you level a field there are two ways of doing that. One is by bringing more dirt on the field to fill in the holes, the other is to rake off the high spots to fill in the holes. Since there isn't enough dirt to fill in the holes you have to use the high spots.

 

[MrFedEx]

First off hes my brother not my brother-in law, secondly Im reffering to you "Living The Dream". Perhaps my brother too would like to live the dream, but you are correct in who he works for that is why I pointed that out. Its the fact that Fed-Ex goes out of its way to PREVENT its employees even the chance to go union thats the problem. Really what are they afraid of, the ball is in their court, if they dont want a union they need to compinsate its employees better. Wall-Mart has the highest paid truckers in the industry, ask yourself why that is. Its because they dont want thier truckers to go union. Pretty cut and dry. The difference between you and I is that I think unions can be very beneficial, as well as devestaing, but thats why employees should be given the oportunity to decide for themselves.

You are right on the money. Like you said, FedEx goes out of it's way to prevent employees from going union, just like Wal-Mart does with it's store workers. Just to speak of the union in a meeting or in general conversation that might be overheard by management is enough to get you on a watch list, and probably targeted for termination. Is that legal? Hell no, but it's never stopped FedEx from creating the type of anti-union environment that exists there.

And to the person who said they had never met a FedEx employee who wants to go union...get real. You must not have met very many. There are a whole bunch of pro-union workers at FedEx and Fred is pretty worried about it.

 

[Livin the Dream?]

...It would seem to me that FedEx is trying to circumvent their employee's (just calling a spade a spade here, I know they are "independent" contractors) rights of unionizing but still want their own right to be a "union" of owners. Or in other words, a corporation.

The contractor model is the tool they are using to accomplish this circumvention.

Well of course they are. And it is completely legal to do so.

My point has NEVER been the motivation of FedEx to use the IC model - it is clearly less expensive & less hassle on FedEx.

My point has NEVER been if the IC model they use is legal or not. It is.

My point has never been whether UPS or FedEx has the better system. (FedEx system is better for FedEx, UPS system is better for the employees)

My point has ALWAYS been this; It is transparent bullying in the classic "Tonya Harding" fashion that UPS/Teamsters/UPS employees are pushing for the disintegration of the IC model so FedEx can become one great big union shop, for the purpose of helping the poor underpaid workers at FedEx.

Because that is complete & utter BS.

Anyone who states that we are doing this to help those poor souls, or feels that way, is only spouting off what they have read posted by the union or what they heard from others that are misinformed.

There is a good reason why there are MUCH fewer union workers than in the past, and it is NOT because they are good for our country, it is NOT because unions make us more competitive, and it is NOT that unions have the company's or country's best interests at heart.

Someone above (maybe another post) insinuated that I must be very selfish to have this position. On the contrary - and please think about this before you get your torches & pitchforks - I believe there is no way to be more selfish than to be a union member. It is then ALL about the individual, with no regard whatsoever for the whole. It is the classic "screw everyone else, I want mine" scenario. The well-being of the customer, the company, the country falls behind the needs (contractual obligations) due ME.