Will Supervisors be needed in the future?

[Jim Kemp]

Yesterday I was talking to our center manager and he said that every morning they are told how many drivers they can put on the road by IE. He has no say in it. So again I ask why do we have a full time sup. there?

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Yesterday I was talking to our center manager and he said that every morning they are told how many drivers they can put on the road by IE. He has no say in it. So again I ask why do we have a full time sup. there?

Read the 804 thread and you will see the need for supervision.

 

[soberups]

We will always need good management, no matter what technology we use.

The problem we have now is that the people who make the day-to-day decisions that matter (stops per car) are pretty much absentee landlords, issuing their edicts from "on high" with no accountability and no concept of the effect that those decisions have on our customers.

The modern center manager is like the pilot in an airplane that has had its steering wheel and engine controls removed from the cockpit. He gets to look out the window and talk to the passengers over the intercom, but he doesnt actually have any direct control over the aircraft itself. The speed and altitude and direction of the plane are all in the hands of an IE guy in another time zone who is flying it via remote control from behind a desk. He is always right, he knows everything, and its not his ass that gets splattered all over the side of a mountain when his assumptions prove to be inaccurate.

 

[Jim Kemp]

hold on there a minute Mr blanket logic,, i think the op had a legit question,, on the operations level with telematics,, what purpose would a on road sup provide??[/QUOT)

what he has always done. train the driver. Supervise his results.

But all that could be done with less people. How often do you train a driver? And the supervision of a driver could be done from another location and handled by a part time sup. or OMS clerk. Our Dm told me he could track drivers from any location, he also said he could send drivers messages from his smart phone.

 

[Catatonic]

But all that could be done with less people. How often do you train a driver? And the supervision of a driver could be done from another location and handled by a part time sup. or OMS clerk. Our Dm told me he could track drivers from any location, he also said he could send drivers messages from his smart phone.

Looks like you don't really understand Corporations and their Risk Management mitigation strategies and tactics.
To protect UPS from litigation in case of an accident or other risks, the UPS Risk Management department will require x number of OJS / Safety per year.
There is greater safety in working for a large corporation but here are tradeoffs as well ... seemingly non-valued activities such as these rides are one of them.
I could type up pages of other seemingly non-value added activities I see on a recurring basis but I recognize them as Corporate necessities and go along with the flow.
Not my call for whole Corporation but I do concentrate on my little area I can influence and try to keep the no-value activities to a minimum ... that keeps me busy enough.

 

[pretzel_man]

We will always need good management, no matter what technology we use.

The problem we have now is that the people who make the day-to-day decisions that matter (stops per car) are pretty much absentee landlords, issuing their edicts from "on high" with no accountability and no concept of the effect that those decisions have on our customers.

The modern center manager is like the pilot in an airplane that has had its steering wheel and engine controls removed from the cockpit. He gets to look out the window and talk to the passengers over the intercom, but he doesnt actually have any direct control over the aircraft itself. The speed and altitude and direction of the plane are all in the hands of an IE guy in another time zone who is flying it via remote control from behind a desk. He is always right, he knows everything, and its not his ass that gets splattered all over the side of a mountain when his assumptions prove to be inaccurate.

Yesterday I was talking to our center manager and he said that every morning they are told how many drivers they can put on the road by IE. He has no say in it. So again I ask why do we have a full time sup. there?

I have posted over and over again that the dispatch process is owned by the operator. That its the center team that is responsible for putting the right number of drivers on road each day, but IE (among others) will hold them accountable.

So, for the sake of this argument, lets assume that you are right. Lets assume that IE is forcing the operator to put the wrong number of cars on road.

We either have a very strong and powerful I.E. department, or a super weak operations group. Lets look at the Org Chart....

The Center Manager Reports to the Division Manager. The Division Manager Reports to the Ops Manager. Ops Manager reports to the District Manager.

You are saying that the I.E. manager is dictating to these multiple levels of management what to do??? Making them do what they do not want to do?

That the Ops Manager who is ultimately responsible for cost and service can't override him / her? Even though the Ops Manager is generally of a higher grade? Many were ex district managers.....

I guess none of them have the guts to take on the big, bad, I.E. department? (or maybe its easier to blame someone else.)

Again, find me a Division Manager or Ops Manager who says the wrong number of cars are on the road....

 

[tourists24]

Again, find me a Division Manager or Ops Manager who says the wrong number of cars are on the road....

I can only speak of our center manager who is always stating that he wants more routes on the road. He is over ridden. Our Division manager has no clue about any of our centers "real world". Only what the numbers tell him and of course he is ok with it

 

[pretzel_man]

I can only speak of our center manager who is always stating that he wants more routes on the road. He is over ridden. Our Division manager has no clue about any of our centers "real world". Only what the numbers tell him and of course he is ok with it

Unfortunately, I believe you.....

 

[dannyboy]

Pman

What we are saying is that what sober has posted is what the drivers, part timers, other internal people , are told by their managers. We hear what sober has posted every single day. Day after day, year after year. For the last Ten+ years.

So, either they are all liars, or you are badly mistaken.

Well, OK, I know at least some of them were lying $*#*@..........

d

 

[tourists24]

Unfortunately, I believe you.....

I think that is the breakdown in agreement/disagreement many drivers have. You have the tech prospective that if all of the ducks in the row line up and mgt use the system the correct way then it can be done. The driver sits back and watches events from the "real world" line up and a mess ensues. Just seems to me that either management at the DM level down are either not trained well enough or simply takes the quick fix approach when a problem arises.

 

[packageguy]

I think in about 1 years time, if the are 70 drivers to a center, maybe 3
supervisors. They will be there for a sick load or two. lol

 

[pretzel_man]

I think that is the breakdown in agreement/disagreement many drivers have. You have the tech prospective that if all of the ducks in the row line up and mgt use the system the correct way then it can be done. The driver sits back and watches events from the "real world" line up and a mess ensues. Just seems to me that either management at the DM level down are either not trained well enough or simply takes the quick fix approach when a problem arises.

Actually, my approach has nothing to do with technology.

Dispatch methods, processes and roles existed long before systems came into play.

What I am saying is this.....

You can't tell me that the dispatch is inefficient, drivers crossing over each other, poor loads, etc. and expect me to believe that the solution is to put on extra drivers and hide the root problem. The problems drivers bring up cause extra time.....

The root problem in this situation is the dispatch. Fix the dispatch. Then time to do the job lessens....

That is how to fix the situation. Its not to just allow excess cost.

Now, I do agree that if all one does is force a poor dispatch on road every day and never fixes it, this is a plan to fail, and fail big time.

 

[pretzel_man]

Pman

What we are saying is that what sober has posted is what the drivers, part timers, other internal people , are told by their managers. We hear what sober has posted every single day. Day after day, year after year. For the last Ten+ years.

So, either they are all liars, or you are badly mistaken.

Well, OK, I know at least some of them were lying $*#*@..........

d

There are more than two choices, because I am NOT badly mistaken.

How many centers and districts have the people who post here seen? Does what they say happen? Of course it does. I saw it just last week in a center....

Does it happen everywhere? Of course not.

Again, tell me about the Ops manager or Division manager who says they are putting on the wrong number of cars. Go look at the top 100 PDS' in the country and see how their operations run.....

Yes... Some managers are lying. Some drivers are "exagerating". Buts its a big UPS.

Taking the small example and deciding that is how all of UPS works is misleading....

 

[hypocrisy]

Looks like you don't really understand Corporations and their Risk Management mitigation strategies and tactics.
To protect UPS from litigation in case of an accident or other risks, the UPS Risk Management department will require x number of OJS / Safety per year.
There is greater safety in working for a large corporation but here are tradeoffs as well ... seemingly non-valued activities such as these rides are one of them.
I could type up pages of other seemingly non-value added activities I see on a recurring basis but I recognize them as Corporate necessities and go along with the flow.
Not my call for whole Corporation but I do concentrate on my little area I can influence and try to keep the no-value activities to a minimum ... that keeps me busy enough.

I think a smarter way to do it would be to have roving groups of Safety ride specific on-roads, and Methods Training on-roads. This way, the Safety guys would just focus on that instead of the full plate of harassment we get now. I'm hoping that a floating training sup would be better than the clash of personalities we have now, but it's probably a pipe dream. Ideally, the Methods/Training sup would instill the UPS work ethic in the new driver then revisit every so often to fine tune methods and eliminate bad habits. Perhaps they could even be tasked with identifying dispatch issues and taking it up with the dispatch sup. Since the Company is usually very slow in adding new drivers you could probably use less than half the current on-roads in any district to serve both purposes.

In my experience, few supervisors could put on the Safety glasses and approach that issue only without using it as a smokescreen to harass what they viewed as an unproductive driver. Neither issue ends up being properly addressed. I had one on-road who wanted to do a safety ride with me during peak when I had my helper. "Where are you going to sit? I asked. "I'm going to stand right here in the aisle while you drive with the bulkhead door open." He replied, very matter-of-factly. And that's exactly what he did.

 

[soberups]

I had one on-road who wanted to do a safety ride with me during peak when I had my helper. "Where are you going to sit? I asked. "I'm going to stand right here in the aisle while you drive with the bulkhead door open." He replied, very matter-of-factly. And that's exactly what he did.

That would not be an option in any package car that I was driving.

If you are a passenger in my package car, you will sit in the jumpseat and the car will not move until you have your seabelt fastened. I dont care if you are Scott Davis, the subject of seat belt use is non-negotiable. Go ahead and fire me; the termination would not be upheld and either way I dont need the mental trauma of watching a passenger get thrown through the windshield to be on my conscience for the rest of my life.

 

[bumped]

Actually, my approach has nothing to do with technology.

Dispatch methods, processes and roles existed long before systems came into play.

What I am saying is this.....

You can't tell me that the dispatch is inefficient, drivers crossing over each other, poor loads, etc. and expect me to believe that the solution is to put on extra drivers and hide the root problem. The problems drivers bring up cause extra time.....

The root problem in this situation is the dispatch. Fix the dispatch. Then time to do the job lessens....

That is how to fix the situation. Its not to just allow excess cost.

Now, I do agree that if all one does is force a poor dispatch on road every day and never fixes it, this is a plan to fail, and fail big time.

The main problem is there is no time to fix anything. The dispatcher has 30 drivers basically talking to him every morning at the same time. The preload only cares about getting the packages in a car to make their numbers look good. It doesn't even have to be in the right car. Just last week, I heard the full time preload sup tell a loader not to do the add cut because there was no time. "Just get it in". There are always packages sitting outside my car to deliver because I'm in the same city. The other cars in my loop left already.

It seems every operation of UPS only cares about its own numbers. CYA, I guess.

 

[tourists24]

The main problem is there is no time to fix anything. The dispatcher has 30 drivers basically talking to him every morning at the same time. The preload only cares about getting the packages in a car to make their numbers look good. It doesn't even have to be in the right car. Just last week, I heard the full time preload sup tell a loader not to do the add cut because there was no time. "Just get it in". There are always packages sitting outside my car to deliver because I'm in the same city. The other cars in my loop left already.

It seems every operation of UPS only cares about its own numbers. CYA, I guess.

And that is what is known as the "real world"

 

[soberups]

You can't tell me that the dispatch is inefficient, drivers crossing over each other, poor loads, etc. and expect me to believe that the solution is to put on extra drivers and hide the root problem. The problems drivers bring up cause extra time.....

The root problem in this situation is the dispatch. Fix the dispatch. Then time to do the job lessens....

That is how to fix the situation. .

But most of the time, the drivers crossing over each other, poor loads etc. are the direct result of trying to meet that Stops Per Car metric.

A dispatch plan that works great when you load it into 50 cars becomes a train wreck when you have to try and force it into 47.

The problem is that its waaaay more complicated than simply shifting stops from one car to the next according to area trace. The number of stops per car might fluctuate but there are certain parameters that remain a constant regardless of that number. NDA commit times dont change. Bulk stops dont change. The need to service satellite centers with pup trailers doesnt change. The number of daily pickups and the window of time that they must be serviced in doesnt change.

Lets say you have 5 cars in a loop, and volume drops to where one has to be eliminated. Lets assume that route is the "E" car, and that it is dispatched in a P-7. Eliminate that route, and whatever business bulk stops it has have to be shifted to the other cars. Well in an area like mine, there are some routes that have to be dispatched in P-7's because they deliver rural areas with tight driveways that cannot be navigated in a larger car. Or they service a satellite center and must pull a trailer to that location, which requires a hitch, which are only installed on P-7's. So when you eliminate the "E" car you must find a way to force that volume into other cars in the loop that often cannot contain it and for which a larger car is not an option. In addition, somebody still has to deliver the "E" cars committed packages (in addition to their own) within the normal time frame, which means even more breaking of trace. And the "E" cars pickups must still be contained and serviced within an acceptable timeframe, which means even more breaking of trace. So instead of the precise and orderly shifting of volume from one car to the next....which seems so simple when viewed on a map from behind a desk...... you wind up with a chaotic and counterproductive pile of Band-Aid compromises and jury-rigged solutions to the real-world logistical problems of time and containment.

Eliminating routes properly to account for fluctuations in volume is work that requires a scalpel. Cutting routes in order to satisfy an arbitrary SPC metric is like using a chain saw instead.

 

[pretzel_man]

But most of the time, the drivers crossing over each other, poor loads etc. are the direct result of trying to meet that Stops Per Car metric.

A dispatch plan that works great when you load it into 50 cars becomes a train wreck when you have to try and force it into 47.

The problem is that its waaaay more complicated than simply shifting stops from one car to the next according to area trace. The number of stops per car might fluctuate but there are certain parameters that remain a constant regardless of that number. NDA commit times dont change. Bulk stops dont change. The need to service satellite centers with pup trailers doesnt change. The number of daily pickups and the window of time that they must be serviced in doesnt change.

Lets say you have 5 cars in a loop, and volume drops to where one has to be eliminated. Lets assume that route is the "E" car, and that it is dispatched in a P-7. Eliminate that route, and whatever business bulk stops it has have to be shifted to the other cars. Well in an area like mine, there are some routes that have to be dispatched in P-7's because they deliver rural areas with tight driveways that cannot be navigated in a larger car. Or they service a satellite center and must pull a trailer to that location, which requires a hitch, which are only installed on P-7's. So when you eliminate the "E" car you must find a way to force that volume into other cars in the loop that often cannot contain it and for which a larger car is not an option. In addition, somebody still has to deliver the "E" cars committed packages (in addition to their own) within the normal time frame, which means even more breaking of trace. And the "E" cars pickups must still be contained and serviced within an acceptable timeframe, which means even more breaking of trace. So instead of the precise and orderly shifting of volume from one car to the next....which seems so simple when viewed on a map from behind a desk...... you wind up with a chaotic and counterproductive pile of Band-Aid compromises and jury-rigged solutions to the real-world logistical problems of time and containment.

Eliminating routes properly to account for fluctuations in volume is work that requires a scalpel. Cutting routes in order to satisfy an arbitrary SPC metric is like using a chain saw instead.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of the last line.... Cutting a route requires doing it properly and having a reasonable job setup. That doesn't mean that the metric is arbitrary....

A given stop level requires a given number of drivers. Generally, you need a couple of plans per driver level (to account for different volume distributions).

If you have four driver levels and two plans each, that's only 8 plans to really manage. Of course, there are adjustments needed daily, but its NOT that big a deal to do....

Lots of centers who do it very well.

Drivers crossing each other is not generally the result of an arbitrary metric or having too few cars... Its the result of improperly dispatching to the correct stop level. And all that does is increase miles and cost.

This is not new with the new technology. Controlled dispatch principles have existed for 30 years. When done right, it still works today.

Too often it is not done right, I agree with that. The solution is NOT to give it up. Its to do it right.

I do agree that in the mean time, the driver feels the brunt of the issue.

 

[tourists24]

There lies the problem... centers DO NOT do it correctly. Please let us know all of these centers that are doing it correctly (you said lots). I would love to have my management to get in touch with them for advice. I would also like to hear from some of these drivers affected to tell us all how well it works when routes are cut.