Pathetic Purple FPP Payout

[vantexan]

But I corrected myself. And your reply about the portable pension plan being a different plan doesn't explain why it doesn't pay as much. Why not set it up with higher payments into the plan so that we get something similar to the traditional pension? You already know that answer. And you implied that you understood things that I didn't, and that I should "educate" myself because I'm not "informed." That's very patronizing. Would you like to lead me by the hand, simple courier that I am? I've known plenty of mgrs that arrogantly believe that they are mentally superior, and are very patronizing. That's why I believe there are mgr's here. If it walks like a duck...

Did FedEx give me a signed document with an ironclad guarantee of a pension? No, just told me over and over through the years that if I put in the time I would earn a pension based on a set formula. And I can tell you that formula in great detail if you think I'm uninformed. Better than every mgr that I've ever discussed it with. And they did ask me to choose one or the other. Does FedEx not honor choices it asked you to make?

The most senior couriers topped out in 23 months. I did. Many other couriers topped out in 4 to 5 years. At this point I'd gladly take 15, not the 25 to 30 it takes now. In the 11 years since being rehired topped out couriers have grossed on 40 hrs a week approx $100,000 more than I have. I can understand a certain amount of time, but does that 22 year courier deserve that much more than me with no end in sight? FedEx has made me and other mid-range employees second class citizens, period. And that you tow the company line on that tells me all I need to know about you. I've actually spoken against voting for a union in this economy but your uncaring, pro-profit for the few at the expense of the rest rhetoric is changing my mind in a hurry.

 

[vantexan]

I'm wondering why FedEx paid a dividend in this economy when employees didn't get a raise last year and only a partial raise this year? Someone mentioned earlier that every dollar paid in a bonus was $290,000 off the bottom line. I wonder how much comes off the bottom line with every penny in dividends paid on so many millions of shares? And that's paid every quarter!

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Decrease or eliminate dividends and watch the shareholders dump their stocks.

 

[quadro]

But I corrected myself. And your reply about the portable pension plan being a different plan doesn't explain why it doesn't pay as much. Why not set it up with higher payments into the plan so that we get something similar to the traditional pension? You already know that answer. And you implied that you understood things that I didn't, and that I should "educate" myself because I'm not "informed." That's very patronizing. Would you like to lead me by the hand, simple courier that I am? I've known plenty of mgrs that arrogantly believe that they are mentally superior, and are very patronizing. That's why I believe there are mgr's here. If it walks like a duck...

There are many, many posts here that are responded to with attacks on the poster and their beliefs rather than factually debating the issues. I chose the high road and rather than attacking you for posting incorrect facts and misinformation (which you have admitted you did), I laid out the facts and encouraged you to read up on the PPA of 2006 so that you could make educated decisions. You even said "I sincerely want correct info" which I attempted to give you. As I don't have all the answers I also suggested you do some research on the subject. If you would prefer that I don't give you accurate info and don't encourage you to learn and understand the facts and you would rather make uninformed decisions, by all means, let me know and I'll go down that road instead. As it is, you are now the one being patronizing.

Did FedEx give me a signed document with an ironclad guarantee of a pension? No, just told me over and over through the years that if I put in the time I would earn a pension based on a set formula. And I can tell you that formula in great detail if you think I'm uninformed. Better than every mgr that I've ever discussed it with. And they did ask me to choose one or the other. Does FedEx not honor choices it asked you to make?

In my opinion it's just being unrealistic to think that things will never change. When I was hired I was told the same thing about the pension. As I learned about the PPA I understood why the change was made. I also realize that FedEx couldn't have known what the PPA would do when they told me about the traditional plan. And the formula you refer to isn't that big of a deal. 2% X #of credit years of service (max 25) X the average of your highest 5 years.

The most senior couriers topped out in 23 months. I did. Many other couriers topped out in 4 to 5 years. At this point I'd gladly take 15, not the 25 to 30 it takes now. In the 11 years since being rehired topped out couriers have grossed on 40 hrs a week approx $100,000 more than I have. I can understand a certain amount of time, but does that 22 year courier deserve that much more than me with no end in sight? FedEx has made me and other mid-range employees second class citizens, period. And that you tow the company line on that tells me all I need to know about you. I've actually spoken against voting for a union in this economy but your uncaring, pro-profit for the few at the expense of the rest rhetoric is changing my mind in a hurry.

I don't disagree with you that it would be nice to be paid more. Heck, I don't think anyone would disagree with you; however, I would guess that the employees who have more seniority than you take the opposite view that they've been doing this longer and should get paid more. Are they right or are you right? Not an easy answer.

I don't agree with everything FedEx does and I don't tow[sic] the company line. If I didn't care, I would do what you are doing and using ad hominem arguments. You came here and asked for information. I suggested you get the facts and not listen to the rhetoric. Ironic that you are accusing me of doing what you are doing.

 

[vantexan]

OK, I'll take that. Still, I'm making $16.75hr after 11 years. If that doesn't jibe with your experience I'm on the lowest payscale. Topped out employees were making $16.64hr in 1999 on this payscale. In terms of purchasing power I'm making less now than as a topped out courier in 1997 at $13.50hr when I quit. And believe me topped out couriers were howling in 1997 about their pay. We can spin it any way we want but FedEx is no longer a good deal for guys like me. And when rehired I was told that I would top out in 7 to 8 years by my mgr and at the next station I transferred to also. I've heard those mgrs and mgrs at other stations tell newhires the same thing. Also I've spent many thousands of dollars transferring out of bad situations where I was lied to to get me there or dealt with crooked mgrs who were cheating me and in some instances cheating customers, committing fraud. Went to the company about the mgr who rehired me. They circled the wagons and denied any wrongdoing. Eventually he was told to take the mgrs buyout or get fired. You wouldn't believe some of the situations I experienced. And the stress. So why didn't I leave? Thru everything I held on because I was going to get a pension in the low $20k's when I turned 55. Now it's $13k with no COLA. Plus a small portable pension amount. So why not leave now? 48, lousy economy. And no matter what the company did or didn't know, they could be more generous in the PPA. But they aren't.

About that dividend. If I bought a million shares of Fedex stock today, how much would FedEx get? Nada! Unless they offer an IPO, which generally is something new companies do, stock traded on the market only affects those who own the stock like individuals and mutual funds. Everything the company does is towards keeping a high stock price for those who own a lot of stock. That's where the real wealth is at. Trying to impress Wall Street analysts with projections of high operating margins to get them to recommend buying FedEx stock results in doing things like putting more and more of health care costs on us, slowing pay progression to a trickle, freezing pension plans. I'll take it you are sincere. Don't kid yourself, maintaining a high stock price is our top priority. And after spending most of my adult life helping them be successful, I believe I have a right to say that exploiting others for personal gain is wrong. I and other mid-range employees want to share in the rewards of working for FedEx, not just exist for the company's benefit.

 

[MrFedEx]

Remember what else happened in 2006? The passenger airlines all tanked and dumped or severely modified their pensions, forcing the federal government to step-in with their "guarantee" program. Crafty old Fred saw an opportunity. Why, after all, isn't FedEx an airline too?(no). So, even though we were extremely profitable, he dumped our old plan, which wasn't very good either, and replaced it with the PPP, which isn't a pension at all. He's always thinking way up there atop Mt. Crumpet, about how to take from the "Who's" and pretend nothing has happened. Why that mean old Fred even said "your PPP cost a lot". when in fact he was lying, because it "really did not". So purple children, you truly must see, that old Uncle Fred's a crook actually.

 

[quadro]

Remember what else happened in 2006? The passenger airlines all tanked and dumped or severely modified their pensions, forcing the federal government to step-in with their "guarantee" program. Crafty old Fred saw an opportunity. Why, after all, isn't FedEx an airline too?(no). So, even though we were extremely profitable, he dumped our old plan, which wasn't very good either, and replaced it with the PPP, which isn't a pension at all. He's always thinking way up there atop Mt. Crumpet, about how to take from the "Who's" and pretend nothing has happened. Why that mean old Fred even said "your PPP cost a lot". when in fact he was lying, because it "really did not". So purple children, you truly must see, that old Uncle Fred's a crook actually.

FedEx changing pension plans had nothing to do with what other airlines did. FedEx happened to do the same thing but it was because of the upcoming changes in the PPA. Verizon, Lockheed Martin, IBM, Motorola all did the same thing. The stock market had been somewhat flat and the economy was starting to head in the wrong direction. There is no debating how much it would have cost FedEx to keep the traditional plan. Whether or not FedEx could afford to keep it is another question.
If FedEx isn't an airline, what are all those big things with wings and pilots flying them? You can call an apple an orange but it's still an apple.

 

[MrFedEx]

FedEx changing pension plans had nothing to do with what other airlines did. FedEx happened to do the same thing but it was because of the upcoming changes in the PPA. Verizon, Lockheed Martin, IBM, Motorola all did the same thing. The stock market had been somewhat flat and the economy was starting to head in the wrong direction. There is no debating how much it would have cost FedEx to keep the traditional plan. Whether or not FedEx could afford to keep it is another question.
If FedEx isn't an airline, what are all those big things with wings and pilots flying them? You can call an apple an orange but it's still an apple.

Sorry, but when a shark smells blood in the water, it attacks. When the passenger airlines took a dump, their blood was all over the media.The new pension rules were a convenient means of explaining it all away, and were designed for failing companies, not extremely profitable ones that could still afford to fully fund pensions. Please tell me why the pilots and executives still have their plan if FedEx can't afford to fund ours? Stop thinking that Fred S is anything but an opportunistic piece of crap that will extract every penny he can out of us. God, wake-up!!

 

[quadro]

Sorry, but when a shark smells blood in the water, it attacks. When the passenger airlines took a dump, their blood was all over the media.The new pension rules were a convenient means of explaining it all away, and were designed for failing companies, not extremely profitable ones that could still afford to fully fund pensions. Please tell me why the pilots and executives still have their plan if FedEx can't afford to fund ours? Stop thinking that Fred S is anything but an opportunistic piece of crap that will extract every penny he can out of us. God, wake-up!!

It appears your hatred of Fred and FedEx are a convenient way of dismissing facts. The new pension rules did mean substantial increases in costs. That's not speculation, a guess, or my opinion. Even for healthy companies, the hundreds of millions, or more, that it was going to cost to fully fund their plans was just too risky. The pilots and HCE's have a different plan and are a substantially smaller group of people.

The other point that's being missed is that according to Bureau of Labor stats, young workers are much less likely to stay with a company for an entire career compared to how people used to approach a job. Because the benefit of a defined benefit plan generally comes towards the end of a career, more and more people are benefiting from portable plans. I realize that doesn't help anybody that's caught in the switchover. I also understand that many people are upset, and rightly so, at the loss of the traditional plan. I don't, however, dismiss the implications of the PPA and the effect it had on many companies regardless of who it may or may not have been designed for. That just leads to the "be careful what you ask for as you might just get it".

 

[MrFedEx]

It appears your hatred of Fred and FedEx are a convenient way of dismissing facts. The new pension rules did mean substantial increases in costs. That's not speculation, a guess, or my opinion. Even for healthy companies, the hundreds of millions, or more, that it was going to cost to fully fund their plans was just too risky. The pilots and HCE's have a different plan and are a substantially smaller group of people.

The other point that's being missed is that according to Bureau of Labor stats, young workers are much less likely to stay with a company for an entire career compared to how people used to approach a job. Because the benefit of a defined benefit plan generally comes towards the end of a career, more and more people are benefiting from portable plans. I realize that doesn't help anybody that's caught in the switchover. I also understand that many people are upset, and rightly so, at the loss of the traditional plan. I don't, however, dismiss the implications of the PPA and the effect it had on many companies regardless of who it may or may not have been designed for. That just leads to the "be careful what you ask for as you might just get it".

Smith took advantage of an opportunity that was presented to him. I don't care about statistics that show young workers are less likely to stay with a company long-term. FedEx made a commitment to their employees (the old plan) and then broke that agreement and saved the company huge money. Gee, why didn't he raise our pay in order to compensate us for the retirement hit we took? Or reduce top-out times? Or grant market-level increases? A lot of us stayed with FedEx because we felt that Smith would honor his end of the bargain. He didn't. That's why we need a union.

 

[vantexan]

The other point that's being missed is that according to Bureau of Labor stats, young workers are much less likely to stay with a company for an entire career compared to how people used to approach a job. Because the benefit of a defined benefit plan generally comes towards the end of a career, more and more people are benefiting from portable plans. I realize that doesn't help anybody that's caught in the switchover. I also understand that many people are upset, and rightly so, at the loss of the traditional plan. I don't, however, dismiss the implications of the PPA and the effect it had on many companies regardless of who it may or may not have been designed for. That just leads to the "be careful what you ask for as you might just get it".

Yes, under the traditional pension typically an employee's last 5 years are their 5 highest paid years assuming annual raises. Problem is that after a person got in 25 years they may have decided in their late 40's to early 50's that they'd rather do something else with their life and that the little extra they'd get from further years with the company isn 't worth it to them. However if you want to see a pension that's loaded on the back end look at the PPA! The average employee will have to work 40 years to have anywhere close to what he had with 25 years on the traditional plan. I doubt he'd have 2/3rds of the traditional plan after 40 years.

MrFedEx is spot on. FedEx saw an opportunity to use the new accounting rules to justify terminating the traditional pension. If not, why wasn't the PPA set up to provide as much, or at least close to, as the traditional pension did?

I'm curious quadro...do you think that FedEx never considers the effect on the stock price that their cost cutting measures have? Is a high stock price just a happy accident? Do they never have meetings to discuss what can be done to improve profits? I think they go into those quarterly teleconference meetings with Wall Street reps very prepared. By the way, that quote of Fred S about 10%plus operating margins? In the next quarter's teleconference he was asked if he had actually said 10%plus? He replied that he had. That kind of thing get's Wall Street's attention, and he went into that meeting knowing he could back it up because they had just announced that the traditional pension was to be terminated. Not right away, but FedEx was going to be able to show improvement in the future, the kind of improvement that says there's more money available for dividends. A mutual fund can show growth to it's investors by investing in stock that provides good dividends. And their buying our stock will keep the price up. But apparently just knowing that we're helping a relative few get very wealthy should be good enough for us. Am I spreading misinformation? I'm just stating the obvious. I understand economics too, and I also understand that some think that the average employee can be easily snowed. Frankly, I think that if things continue as is, this country is eventually heading towards open revolt and chaos. Might not happen for awhile, but the constant push to concentrate wealth will eventually lead to the conditions that created unions a century ago.

 

[quadro]

Smith took advantage of an opportunity that was presented to him. I don't care about statistics that show young workers are less likely to stay with a company long-term. FedEx made a commitment to their employees (the old plan) and then broke that agreement and saved the company huge money. Gee, why didn't he raise our pay in order to compensate us for the retirement hit we took? Or reduce top-out times? Or grant market-level increases? A lot of us stayed with FedEx because we felt that Smith would honor his end of the bargain. He didn't. That's why we need a union.

"But you promised" isn't really a good justification not to evaluate a business's financials and spending every penny you make isn't good business either. It's too bad we'll never know who's right about whether a union is needed or not.

 

[quadro]

Yes, under the traditional pension typically an employee's last 5 years are their 5 highest paid years assuming annual raises. Problem is that after a person got in 25 years they may have decided in their late 40's to early 50's that they'd rather do something else with their life and that the little extra they'd get from further years with the company isn 't worth it to them. However if you want to see a pension that's loaded on the back end look at the PPA! The average employee will have to work 40 years to have anywhere close to what he had with 25 years on the traditional plan. I doubt he'd have 2/3rds of the traditional plan after 40 years.

That's assuming that they started their career at their current company when they were 20-25 years old. Leaving in their late 40's to early 50's means giving up about 10-15% of their pension but at least a portable plan allows them to have their pension to continue to grow rather than starting over.

MrFedEx is spot on. FedEx saw an opportunity to use the new accounting rules to justify terminating the traditional pension. If not, why wasn't the PPA set up to provide as much, or at least close to, as the traditional pension did?

I don't know why the PPA wasn't set up to match the old plan although I would guess at least in part that it was due to the rules of a PPA. Regardless of our opinions of the PPP, it doesn't change the fact that the old plan would have crippled FedEx if they didn't change. You can paint it as a facade if you want but the PPA did have a major impact on how much a company must contribute to a defined benefit plan. No matter how you argue it, you cannot get around that fact.

I'm curious quadro...do you think that FedEx never considers the effect on the stock price that their cost cutting measures have?

Of course they do. Show me a business that doesn't.

 

[vantexan]

That's assuming that they started their career at their current company when they were 20-25 years old. Leaving in their late 40's to early 50's means giving up about 10-15% of their pension but at least a portable plan allows them to have their pension to continue to grow rather than starting over

You are missing my point. Under the old plan we had the freedom to get a maximum 25 years and then try something else. Not everyone wants to spend their entire life at one place. My plan was to leave at 52 with a 25 year pension and enough savings to live on until 55. I was going to move to the Philippines and find a wife. Not now, I'll have to put my plans on hold. But hey, my worth to FedEx is how productive I can be for as little pay as they can get away with paying me. And if bad mgrs screw me over, well, I've got a job, right? Banzaiiiiiiiii!!!! Banzaiiiiiii!!!!

 

[Broke]

FedEx changing pension plans had nothing to do with what other airlines did. FedEx happened to do the same thing but it was because of the upcoming changes in the PPA. Verizon, Lockheed Martin, IBM, Motorola all did the same thing. The stock market had been somewhat flat and the economy was starting to head in the wrong direction. There is no debating how much it would have cost FedEx to keep the traditional plan. Whether or not FedEx could afford to keep it is another question.
If FedEx isn't an airline, what are all those big things with wings and pilots flying them? You can call an apple an orange but it's still an apple.

Is Fedex in competition with Delta airlines or UPS?

 

[quadro]

Is Fedex in competition with Delta airlines or UPS?

UPS and to a lesser extent some airlines. But all the more reason that it's irrelevant what the other airlines did.

 

[Broke]

UPS and to a lesser extent some airlines. But all the more reason that it's irrelevant what the other airlines did.

My point is, how can an airline be in direct competition
with a trucking company??Answer; Fedex isn't really an airline or we wouldn't be concerned with anything that UPS does. I hope Obama hasn't thrown all the Fedex workers under the bus and sided with Smith. We'll find out in the next few weeks as the Faa bill will be voted on before the end of March.

 

[bbsam]

My point is, how can an airline be in direct competition
with a trucking company??Answer; Fedex isn't really an airline or we wouldn't be concerned with anything that UPS does. I hope Obama hasn't thrown all the Fedex workers under the bus and sided with Smith. We'll find out in the next few weeks as the Faa bill will be voted on before the end of March.

Actually UPS moved into the express market long after Express was established as a courier service of an airline. The failure of UPS to get the same designation has nothing to do with actions by Fedex to prevent it from happening. And where did you see the date for that FAA Re-Authorization bill?

 

[MrFedEx]

Actually UPS moved into the express market long after Express was established as a courier service of an airline. The failure of UPS to get the same designation has nothing to do with actions by Fedex to prevent it from happening. And where did you see the date for that FAA Re-Authorization bill?

UPS actually tried air many years ago and gave it up. When they finally did get into the Express/NDA market UPS also tried to get Fred's special exemption....and failed to do so. Once again, compare the 2 companies, their different divisions, and the way they move the Express/NDA product....basically identical. I used to run the NDA feeder to the airport during peak and was well-versed in the UPS air operation. It's the same thing, done the same way. Why does one company get preferential treatment ?

 

[Broke]

Actually UPS moved into the express market long after Express was established as a courier service of an airline. The failure of UPS to get the same designation has nothing to do with actions by Fedex to prevent it from happening. And where did you see the date for that FAA Re-Authorization bill?

Uh... did airlines exist over a hundred years ago when UPS was founded?