Southern Baptist Convention Throws Out Saddleback Church

[vantexan]

Most all versions have a footnote that also says "or deaconess".

Can you show in the qualifications for being a deacon it ever says anything about being male OR female? You have to take the scripture in its entirety. The Apostle Paul isn't going to say women should remain silent during services then turn around and say a woman can have a position of authority. This is in total conflict with the culture of that time. It would be beyond their comprehension to imagine a world where women are equal to men, have authority over men, dress provocatively in public, have multiple sexual partners, kill unborn babies. Paul singled out a woman who strove to take good care of him and others. That's all.

 

[Integrity]

Once again, it’s because you do not understand his Ways everyone has a roll and that does not mean we are not equal

John13:
13You call me ‘teacher’ and ‘master,’ and rightly so, for indeed I am.h
14If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another’s feet.
15I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.i
16Amen, amen, I say to you, no slave is greater than his master nor any messenger* greater than the one who sent him.j
17If you understand this, blessed are you if you do it.
18I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, ‘The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.’k
19From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.
20Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me.”

So was Jesus telling him you’re not equal because he said he was master and teacher?

Is Jesus telling people he’s not speaking to them and they are not equal when he says I am not speaking to all of you?

He told us if we understood what he meant then we are blessed. Do you understand Jesus is role for human beings. Again, they are difficult to understand because we do not think like a Christ.

Also, by rejecting Paul, and his teachings do you not believe you’re rejecting Christ?
He said, in this passage, whoever received the one I sent received me.

I definitely understand the limitations of my understanding.

I just need to look at my life and then look at His grace, His blessings, and His love in my life as I breathe each breath and wake each morning to understanding His love, mercy, compassion. It is hard to comprehend love like this. I am humbled and blessed by it.

I understand roles but I think roles are set by God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit by the spiritual gifts provided by God to each person, not according to gender but according to God’s personal gifting.

I really believe Paul struggled with the baggage of being a fanatical Pharisee and a person who met the resurrected Christ in person. I think this conflict is evident is some of his writings.

 

[vantexan]

Didn’t ignore it, read it, sought guidance, After much contemplation I to believe it was most likely a mistake by Paul, reflecting his human imperfections in this mistake.

You can’t really know that this is all there is to the story, Jesus did much more than is documented in the Bible. A real lot more.

You can’t know this for sure. For the Bible specifically say he did not make them apostles.

Not always.

Not true.

It's your refusal to follow the Bible unless it lines up with your personal beliefs that's the problem. I'm not making up theology as I go. I'm following what was given to us to follow. Your argument isn't with me but with the one who gave us the Scriptures you take issue with.

 

[Integrity]

It's your refusal to follow the Bible unless it lines up with your personal beliefs that's the problem.

I cannot follow what I don’t believe in religious traditions, written or not written.

I'm not making up theology as I go.

I hope not. Does not seem that way to me.

I'm following what was given to us to follow.

I know we have covered this.

God spoke to you and you have decided to follow what you are telling us God told you to follow.

Will not argue with your hearing from God.

Your argument isn't with me but with the one who gave us the Scriptures you take issue with.

I love reading the Bible it is very useful in my relationship with God.

 

[upschuck]

Can you show in the qualifications for being a deacon it ever says anything about being male OR female? You have to take the scripture in its entirety. The Apostle Paul isn't going to say women should remain silent during services then turn around and say a woman can have a position of authority. This is in total conflict with the culture of that time. It would be beyond their comprehension to imagine a world where women are equal to men, have authority over men, dress provocatively in public, have multiple sexual partners, kill unborn babies. Paul singled out a woman who strove to take good care of him and others. That's all.

True, but it is also in the Bible. Not making it up

 

[vantexan]

True, but it is also in the Bible. Not making it up

Probably best to go back to the original Greek on that.

 

[upschuck]

Probably best to go back to the original Greek on that.

Wish I could.

 

[El Correcto]

It does not "preach inequality", it gives guidance on how to structure leadership in the way that is best for the whole of the church. It also gives a lot of guidance on what kind of men should lead.

Men and women are not equal in every way. This is undeniable except in the minds of progressives and secular humanists that wish to deny reality of the biological, personality, social and cultural differences between men and women.

Denying reality in the name of "equality" is just ridiculous.

I disagree, discriminating against someone based off their sex is wrong. Equal opportunity can be flawed in some ways when it comes to the biological differences between a female and male, but we are not discussing having a woman combat kitted out attempting drag a wounded 150-200lb man out of enemy gunfire, we are discussing a woman who devoted her life to the Christian community preaching about god.

Y’all are just wrong defending this, best argument is legally they can do it because of freedom of religion and sincere beliefs.

 

[Thebrownblob]

I disagree, discriminating against someone based off their sex is wrong. Equal opportunity can be flawed in some ways when it comes to the biological differences between a female and male, but we are not discussing having a woman combat kitted out attempting drag a wounded 150-200lb man out of enemy gunfire, we are discussing a woman who devoted her life to the Christian community preaching about god.

Y’all are just wrong defending this, best argument is legally they can do it because of freedom of religion and sincere beliefs.

I didn’t defend it or say it was wrong. I did, however, give reasons and scriptures why they believe the way they do. Some on here don’t have any thing to point to accept their feelings. That’s their choice but that’s not how an organization works.
I think I’ve stated more than once. I don’t really care it’s not a place I worship at it’s their choice..
I don’t know how big SBC is but I’m going to bet Lots of women go there. I think I’ll trust their judgment on if they should stay or go from that denomination.

And if the best we can do is say it’s freedom of religion I think that’s actually pretty important and it is the best, after all that’s what’s the constitution protects. These are consenting adults, why should I judge?

 

[vantexan]

I disagree, discriminating against someone based off their sex is wrong. Equal opportunity can be flawed in some ways when it comes to the biological differences between a female and male, but we are not discussing having a woman combat kitted out attempting drag a wounded 150-200lb man out of enemy gunfire, we are discussing a woman who devoted her life to the Christian community preaching about god.

Y’all are just wrong defending this, best argument is legally they can do it because of freedom of religion and sincere beliefs.

They can legally do it of course. And in this particular case the SBC can legally distance itself from that congregation. Religious freedom works both ways.

 

[El Correcto]

I didn’t defend it or say it was wrong. I did, however, give reasons and scriptures why they believe the way they do.

Yeah I know we covered what a flawed argument that is for justifying treating people unequally.

These are consenting adults, why should I judge?

You have no problem judging consenting adults or the morality of their actions. Neither do I, I think it’s okay to be lgbt and I also think it’s wrong to keep women from having pastor positions in their community.

 

[Thebrownblob]

Yeah I know we covered what a flawed argument that is for justifying treating people unequally.

You have no problem judging consenting adults or the morality of their actions. Neither do I, I think it’s okay to be lgbt and I also think it’s wrong to keep women from having pastor positions in their community.

And those women are free to leave. No one is forcing them to stay, if that’s how they feel. And no, I do not believe I will judge anyone because I’m not the judge. I can only tell you what my convictions, and what the Bible says.

I think I’ve also stated I believe people like you who don’t believe any of it make more sense than those who only believe some of it.

Either all the Bible is true inspired word of God. or none of it is.

 

[El Correcto]

And those women are free to leave. No one is forcing them to stay, if that’s how they feel. And no, I do not believe I will judge anyone because I’m not the judge. I can only tell you what my convictions, and what the Bible says.

I think I’ve also stated I believe people like you who don’t believe any of it make more sense than those who only believe some of it.

Either all the Bible is true inspired word of God. or none of it is.

They can legally do it of course. And in this particular case the SBC can legally distance itself from that congregation. Religious freedom works both ways.

You keep going in circles ignoring my question and what is left unanswered. Yes I fully agree with both these arguments. Now explain to me why god discriminated against women.

 

[El Correcto]

Explain to me the benefit to humanity from keeping a Christian woman from leading a group of Christians.

 

[Thebrownblob]

You keep going in circles ignoring my question and what is left unanswered. Yes I fully agree with both these arguments. Now explain to me why god discriminated against women.

I did answer that question even though you failed to understand because you are not a Christian and you don’t understand Christ hell I’m a Christian and I don’t understand Christ completely. Everyone has a role that is in his plan. You don’t have to follow that role because he gives us free will but when you step outside of those roles, things tend to spin out of control.

I understand this answer will not suffice you. And that is perfectly fine.

 

[El Correcto]

You don’t have to follow that role because he gives us free will but when you step outside of those roles, things tend to spin out of control.

Yeah no this makes sense. The slippery slope argument. Racists, sexists and homophobes been making this argument for basically since your book came out thousands of years ago.

What a weird fallacy to hang your hat on when it comes to approving discrimination against women.

 

[El Correcto]

I’m playing Christian bingo right now, all I need left is for one of you to start crying about the fall of Rome and ima head out.

 

[Thebrownblob]

Yeah no this makes sense. The slippery slope argument. Racists, sexists and homophobes been making this argument for basically since your book came out thousands of years ago.

What a weird fallacy to hang your hat on when it comes to approving discrimination against women.

Well thank you, then again you think everything we’re talking about is a weird fallacy.But clearly it’s intriguing.

 

[El Correcto]

Well thank you, then again you think everything we’re talking about is a weird fallacy.But clearly it’s intriguing.

The only thing intriguing is why you choose to believe it, why you choose to be a Christian. But even that isn’t that intriguing, if you were born in the Middle East you’d be defending their book and I’d be dead.

 

[Thebrownblob]

The only thing intriguing is why you choose to believe it, why you choose to be a Christian. But even that isn’t that intriguing, if you were born in the Middle East you’d be defending their book and I’d be dead.

Maybe, but that doesn’t make it right. It’s interesting you don’t think there’s Christians in the Middle East as well. And funny enough I wasn’t born into Christianity chose it on my own.