Vote count.

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by 542thruNthru, Aug 30, 2019.

  1. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    i did not swap terms I used your terms.

    So are you telling me the answer to the question I asked you is that you are not absolutely governed by money and production.
     
  2. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    I expect great things when the rank and file decide to rise up in solidarity using correct means to have the voice of the working man heard.
     
  3. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    Let me make this simple. The world is absolutely governed by money and production. A person is not the same as the world. However, since a person's life is dependent on the world, as persons we are governed to a great extent, tyrannically I will add, by the dictates of money and production.
     
  4. I voted and always will
     
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  5. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    Each man or woman of integrity should speak their mind in the correct avenues as Unionism, the CBA, and worst case the NLRB regulatory bodies such as OSHA provide. And there are many correct methods available. Some will some won’t why? Who knows.
    But IMHO the vote has to be viewed as the minimum method that every Union member should feel obligated to make their voice heard.
     
  6. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    And wildcat strikes -- are those correct means, or incorrect?
     
  7. zubenelgenubi

    zubenelgenubi Well-Known Member

    They may be morally correct, based on the circumstances, but in a regulatory sense, they are incorrect.
     
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  8. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    I disagree with your perspective.

    I believe each person is personally responsible for their contribution and response to the world system of their time as they see it.

    By this each person can affect change in the world system.

    1 person can make a difference.
     
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  9. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    Read the CBA.

    IMHO
    Arguably incorrect.
     
  10. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    And in a regulatory sense, basically most of the things that working stiffs have ever done to improve their (our) lives have fallen, at best, into gray areas ... if they haven't been openly illegal and met with violent force (the National Guard, police, pinkertons, scab militias, etc) ...
     
  11. Integrity

    Integrity Binge Poster

    FYI
    It is September 1, 2019.
     
  12. BigUnionGuy

    BigUnionGuy Got the T-Shirt


    I don't even know where to begin.... with these thoughts.
     
  13. zubenelgenubi

    zubenelgenubi Well-Known Member


    Was it the Kentucky Coal Miners who were forced back to work by the Sherrif's department through violence? Situations like that were examples of abuses of power by both government and business owners alike. The actions taken by the workers in fighting back were morally and legally correct.

    We don't face dire circumstances like those these days. On the one hand we should be happy that we don't, on the other hand we need to remain vigilant to prevent a slow backward slide. The conundrum we face is that contentment with circumstances is a, if not the, goal, but contentment breeds complacency. If a majority are content with circumstances, who are any of us to challenge that? The key to motivating action in the majority is to make them uncomfortable, or at least convince them that they should be discontent, but should we want to be responsible for that?
     
  14. zubenelgenubi

    zubenelgenubi Well-Known Member

    I know, thinking is hard...
     
  15. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    There's no magic bullet and, honestly, I don't think the prospects are bright for reigniting the push for better wages and conditions. We all know the long trend: the unions are bleeding out members. The culture is very different now than when the unions were formed, e.g., it is common to not know your neighbors and coworkers, to communicate primarily via screens (as we do here, of course), etc etc.

    I don't think union leadership (across the board) has ever been too keen to cultivate rank and file enthusiasm ... after all, the rank and file might decide to take a course contrary to the brass's interests, might decide that we are capable of governing and directing ourselves, no longer requiring their services ...

    When I joined I asked my stew if there was an initiation ceremony for our local. He chuckled and told me "when you see your pay getting deducted, that's your initiation right there."
     
  16. BigUnionGuy

    BigUnionGuy Got the T-Shirt


    Sadly.... it's just theoretical.


    I applaud your positive attitude.
     
  17. zubenelgenubi

    zubenelgenubi Well-Known Member

    No need to be sad, if you can't conceptualize a problem within a theoretical framework, you can't hope to develop meaningful solutions.



    I don't content myself with bemoaning problems and assigning blame to conjectural scapegoats in order to avoid responsibility in coming up with a solution. But the problems are complex, and must be broken down into manageable chunks, examined, understood, then solutions must be developed and tested. If you don't do those things, then you have to accept and embrace your role in being part of the problem, or maybe just live in denial.
     
  18. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    Golly gee, you're right. Let's sing to the tune of those old Philips ads, "It's getting better all the time!"
     
  19. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    I take it you've seen Harlan County, USA? Yes, that's only one example of many in which it's clear that the rank and file's interest is not identical to the union's, let alone the company's or the government's.

    It's hard to say that a fair portion of people don't face awful circumstances. How many children are considered malnourished in this country, by far the richest that's ever existed? How many people commit suicide or else wreck their lives via drug/alcohol addictions? How many people are on prescriptions for depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc etc etc? As RPCDs we still make good money, but that's the exception that proves the rule. And of course even our working conditions are very far from ideal, and we are correct to detest them. Last week I narrowly missed ending my career thanks to a set of 110lb irregs ... was this close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 pieces that had been jammed on top of several other irregs and between the shelves ... was this! close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 ft pieces that had been jammed on top of numerous other irregs and was stuck between the shelves of my P-1200 to boot ... would've hit my ramped hand truck on the way down to the deck ...

    Since the Recession I have watched the midwestern city where I reside slowly but surely go the way of the coastal cities. More lofts and condos, more boutiques, higher rents, flatlined wages -- at a glance everything looks bright and shiny. But you walk and drive the streets, the bum population grows every year. The murder rates are almost as high as during the peak of the 80s-early 90s crime wave. People are working 3 part-time jobs with no benefits to hack it in an 'affordable' city.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  20. Whither

    Whither Scofflaw

    Dup-post, does not void the above ha.