Contract talks

[Southwestern]

Dearest Re-Raise,

As you are incapable of responding to arguments and thus retort to attacking the individual presenting the argument (a habit you've had for awhile, evidenced by your previous postings), you will remain on my ignore list.

I did see a comment quoted to you, and while I appreciate your zealously, I will point out that I carefully constructed my comments: I am near the bottom of seniority within my facility, but am I dead-last within my center. Big difference between the two.

But nice try. Try doing something more productive with your time.

 

[menotyou]

Try doing something more productive with your time.

Would you be taking your own advice? It's obvious your attraction to Re-Raise, as you can't seem to ignore him, even when you claim he is on your 'ignore list'.


Have a great day.

 

[jumpman23]

Heres my take: I think we are all underpaid. The part timers dont make jack, that is a def fact. I remember working preload and it sucked bad. You wake up at a ridiculous hour that your body will never get used to,then you go to work and work your but off and make chump change. And to top it off you are def most likely going to have to go to another part time job after that. Now thats a long day and probably just as many hours as a full time driver. With that said,as i am a full time driver for ten years now, and the job is just ridiculous now. You are basically on the road for at least 12 hours between driving to work and driving home. As soon as you wake up in the morning your day is basically over,thats the truth,and any driver will tell you that. The stress you put on your body and the stress in your home life from the job is priceless. For all the bs,harassment,mental and physical wear you have to endure for that is def worth more than 30 bux an hour. 40 more like it. As much as we are slaved,thats what people who dont do our job everyday will never understand. While they are home chillin with their families at 5pm we are still out for another 3 or 4 hours before we even get home.Then we also have to deal with the weather,traffic and stupid idiot people out there. Another post here was talking about a buyout for guys with 20 years in. Its blatantly obvious ups thinks ft drivers are making too much money. You would think the idea of getting higher paid drivers out of here and having new contract with lesser paid drivers and alot younger drivers,who they would probably get more production out of would make sense to them. Once a driver who can see the finish line,they aint going to kill themselves. For one thing they dont want to and honestly probably physically cant. The older the driver, the easier chance it is for them to get hurt also,doing job by book and methods included,thats the reality of it. Maybe if there was those buyouts to older guys in place, and the payscale a good percentage lower for drivers,there could be a concession to get all those ft jobs ups owes us teamsters. Everybody would win,the older drivers who are hurting physically could finally go home and have a life, alot of those pt guys,who patiently waited through hard work, perserverance,sweat and tears would finally be able to have a career they have wanted for a long time. But a good concession would probably have to be made on the payscale rate for ft drivers. If the ft drivers made less money,they would probably be able to hire more drivers and put more routes. Its all a numbers game for ups, they dont care about their employees,just about numbers. In the end their going to do what they want anyway as long as they think they can make more money. Bottom line period. And put a whole lot of fatt cheeze in hoffas pocket. Its all a game,just like the united states government yall.

 

[upsgrunt]

It's easy to respond with faux cheap shots when you're unable to respond to an argument.

I'm most certainly not bitter about my job -- quite the opposite is true, actually.

The underlining fact is that UPS drivers earn total compensation packages in excess of what many college graduates possessing four-year degrees do, despite the fact that the job entails limited skill and comparable jobs pay much, much less (and exemplified by the number of young, inexperienced drivers who can blow the numbers out after just days of minimal training). We're most certainly not underpaid, and demanding huge future wage hikes (as well as expecting the company to pay for the annual increase in health care) will only lead to disaster in the future (as long as comparable companies like FedEx, OnTrac, etc. remain at a labor advantage). IMO, a fair contract would be one to preserves the current top pay & benefits (providing raises near inflation), not one that breaks the bank.

I got my degree in 88; does that mean I deserve to make the money I make, even though I chose to stay at UPS and not use my degree? Theoretically I could be making way more, but I chose to stay. Am I worthy of your praise?

 

[Southwestern]

I got my degree in 88; does that mean I deserve to make the money I make, even though I chose to stay at UPS and not use my degree? Theoretically I could be making way more, but I chose to stay. Am I worthy of your praise?

If you had a Ph.D., would that justify a demand for $100,000 to scrub the grease off the grill at Burger King?

Compensation is suppose to reflect the competitive nature of attracting talent (of various quality) capable of performing a job. Like it or not, tens of millions of Americans have the "skills" required to successfully drive at UPS. That's why it takes 10+ years (in many buildings) to get a driving job. That's why seasonal kids with little training & experience can blow the numbers out. That's why competing companies pay much, much less. You may not like it, but it's fact. Don't make the job to be something it's not (like the childless house wife who presents herself as the 'domestic engineer.')

 

[Re-Raise]

If you had a Ph.D., would that justify a demand for $100,000 to scrub the grease off the grill at Burger King?

Compensation is suppose to reflect the competitive nature of attracting talent (of various quality) capable of performing a job. Like it or not, tens of millions of Americans have the "skills" required to successfully drive at UPS. That's why it takes 10+ years (in many buildings) to get a driving job. That's why seasonal kids with little training & experience can blow the numbers out. That's why competing companies pay much, much less. You may not like it, but it's fact. Don't make the job to be something it's not (like the childless house wife who presents herself as the 'domestic engineer.')

Compensation is also tied to productivity. I am more productive than drivers for other delivery companies, which has helped UPS achieve record profits.

Like UpsGrunt, who works at a center near mine, I have a degree. If UPS didn't pay well I would be working somewhere else.

You still talk about "seasonal kids" and "taking 10 + years in many buildings" but never about your own experiences.

You are a fraud. One of has to get up and go to work tomorrow as UPS driver, I am done with you.

 

[upsgrunt]

I think there is a big difference between "anyone can do this job", and "anyone is able to do this job". I've seen a lot of 3 month wonders that just quit because they don't want to put up with the BS that is involved with it. Sure UPS can just replace them, but at $1000 to just hire someone, why would they want the rollover? My belief is the high wage does many things, but just to name a few: it weeds out the non-hackers, and promotes longevity and dedication to stick it out to the end. Once a person goes past that threshold, they are more understanding of what the long term ramifications of staying at UPS involves.
Do I want UPS to go belly up? Hell no! But I also know that they wouldn't pay what they couldn't afford and that they also know that they have to pay for what they ask for.
I could be wrong, but this is how things have unfolded for me.

 

[soberups]

Dearest Re-Raise,

As you are incapable of responding to arguments and thus retort to attacking the individual presenting the argument (a habit you've had for awhile, evidenced by your previous postings), you will remain on my ignore list.

I did see a comment quoted to you, and while I appreciate your zealously, I will point out that I carefully constructed my comments: I am near the bottom of seniority within my facility, but am I dead-last within my center. Big difference between the two.

But nice try. Try doing something more productive with your time.

Putting (or pretending to put) someone on your "ignore" list while continuing to post comments to them at the same time is the electronic equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "na na na I cant hear you" to your little sister. It is an immature and fundamentally dishonest way to try and keep a conversation entirely one-sided by frustrating the other party and denying them a voice.

I used to do that...when I was 5 years old. Then I grew out of it. Today, as an adult, I either listen to the other person and then respectfully respond...or I make a choice to stop participating in the conversation altogether and move on to something else.

 

[rod]

Putting (or pretending to put) someone on your "ignore" list while continuing to post comments to them at the same time is the electronic equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "na na na I cant hear you" to your little sister. It is an immature and fundamentally dishonest way to try and keep a conversation entirely one-sided by frustrating the other party and denying them a voice.

I used to do that...when I was 5 years old. Then I grew out of it. Today, as an adult, I either listen to the other person and then respectfully respond...or I make a choice to stop participating in the conversation altogether and move on to something else.

I've been trying to tell Upstate that for years

 

[CharleyHustle]

The underlining fact is that UPS drivers earn total compensation packages in excess of what many college graduates possessing four-year degrees do, despite the fact that the job entails limited skill and comparable jobs pay much, much less (and exemplified by the number of young, inexperienced drivers who can blow the numbers out after just days of minimal training). We're most certainly not underpaid, and demanding huge future wage hikes (as well as expecting the company to pay for the annual increase in health care) will only lead to disaster in the future (as long as comparable companies like FedEx, OnTrac, etc. remain at a labor advantage)

For every UPS driver that's made it to retirement in my barn, I can name 3-4 or more that didn't. Most can't even qualify, a fair portion do something stupid and get fired and bunch just can't take it and quit. This in and of itself doesn't quantify the job as skilled, just that it isn't for everyone. I'm a dumb driver, and not really sure what the "right sized" compensation level should be, but I certainly don't think I should make less and for sure I think after 2013 I'll make at least a little more. I think, and I sure could be wrong But UPS doesn't really mind it that way or they would address it at contract time, last I checked they sign the document also.

Almost to a man, everyone about my age with a degree, except in some instances teachers, makes more than I do, some much more, so it's hard for me to understand this part of your argument. While certainly other delivery companies compensate at lower levels I don't think everything is peachy-keen over there. Take a walk over to the FedEx forum here and tell me again why you just don't sign on with them, if they got it so much together as you repeatedly have said. Now, granted I only see a very very small portion of the FedEx world, but from that, I rarely see any of their drivers obeying any law that would lead to certain termination at UPS. Using cell phone, texting, and power pad while driving. Never securing or even shutting off the truck when delivering, not to mention rarely if ever obeying speed limits.

Speaking of not following rules, there certainly are few new UPS drivers that can tear it up. Of course I can only speak for my barn, but young drivers here overwhelmingly account for most accidents, injuries, missed pkgs, missdeliveries, customer complaints, warning letters, suspensions and terminations. But they can really go.

 

[Southwestern]

Take a walk over to the FedEx forum here and tell me again why you just don't sign on with them, if they got it so much together as you repeatedly have said. Now, granted I only see a very very small portion of the FedEx world...

If you read my postings, you'll notice that I stated a) FedEx Ground enjoys a heavy (labor) cost advantage over UPS and (b) FedEx Ground's volume is growing at a torrid pace. Which of those statements aren't true? I never suggested that FedEx is a better workplace, or FedEx drivers are more happy with their jobs -- because it doesn't matter. If UPS is unable to keep its costs under control, and FedEx remains non-union, the cost advantage will grow so large it will ultimately force UPS into bankruptcy. It's inevitable.

And your compensation justification would hold merit only if people weren't willing to endure a decade of working part-time to drive. In theory, compensation is suppose to be dictated by the market. The only reason UPS employees are paid so well is because we are covered by a CBA.

 

[Catatonic]

If you read my postings, you'll notice that I stated a) FedEx Ground enjoys a heavy (labor) cost advantage over UPS and (b) FedEx Ground's volume is growing at a torrid pace. Which of those statements aren't true? I never suggested that FedEx is a better workplace, or FedEx drivers are more happy with their jobs -- because it doesn't matter. If UPS is unable to keep its costs under control, and FedEx remains non-union, the cost advantage will grow so large it will ultimately force UPS into bankruptcy. It's inevitable.

And your compensation justification would hold merit only if people weren't willing to endure a decade of working part-time to drive. In theory, compensation is suppose to be dictated by the market. The only reason UPS employees are paid so well is because we are covered by a CBA.

I don't see that happening - Logistics and International are the growing parts of UPS. For many years, UPS information based services and products has differentiated us from the competition ... there are many companies that can pickup and deliver loose small packages
Non-Ground products are very profitable.
UPS Freight is questionable.
Ground will continue to shrink as you suggest.

UPS Drivers may decrease in number but UPS going bankrupt is not inevitable or even something I foresee.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Southwestern, as Hoke explained diversification will be the key to our ability to continue to prosper as a company. You make some very good points in your post but bankruptcy is not one of them.

The wage differential does need to be addressed which is why I think you will see a two-tiered wage system introduced for discussion by the company for our next contract.

 

[John19841]

UPS raises shipping rates every year, as they should, to keep up with inflation. Without also raising our wages to keep up with inflation, where is that added money going? To the bottom line, maybe add another billion to the billions they already show. Or...Maybe more money into Scott Davis' pockets?

Yeah, you're right. We don't need raises, we make too much. By not getting raises, we're taking a pay cut...but hey, Scott Davis thanks you.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Could it be that the money goes in to infrastructure, technology or other improvements to ensure our continued profitability? Our contract has a COLA provision to deal with inflation. When is it enough? At what point would you consider yourself to be adequately compensated?

 

[John19841]

Could it be that the money goes in to infrastructure, technology or other improvements to ensure our continued profitability? Our contract has a COLA provision to deal with inflation. When is it enough? At what point would you consider yourself to be adequately compensated?

And COLA has given us what, $0.12 in the last 5 years?

I've tried explaining this to you in the past, and you really don't seem to get it. I think you've lost touch with reality and now are disagreeing just to disagree about something. But, I'll go through it one more time for you.

I feel as if I'm adequately compensated now. However, without yearly raises, as the cost of everything around us rises, by making the same, we would essentially be taking a pay cut every year. Food, gas, utilities, consumer goods...EVERYTHING goes up in cost as time passes.

I'm just glad that 20 years ago people like you weren't running around saying Drivers were making too much money, and it needed to stop. Drivers have always been compensated well (read: fairly) but that will all stop when we stop getting our raises. It won't be an noticeable overnight, but over the life of the contract and contracts to come, it sure will be.

We've talked about"screwing the young" (part timers) so that drivers can make more, etc. Why is that not OK, but it's OK to screw low seniority and future drivers who what you propose would really effect?

 

[CharleyHustle]

In theory, compensation is suppose to be dictated by the market.

Totally disagree. Wages and compensation are "dictated" by production. This lawyer makes more money because his clients win in court. This construction company commands a higher fee because they provide on time higher quality work. This wide receiver makes more because he catches more touchdown passes.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Totally disagree. Wages and compensation are "dictated" by production. This lawyer makes more money because his clients win in court. This construction company commands a higher fee because they provide on time higher quality work. This wide receiver makes more because he catches more touchdown passes.

...which is counterintuitive in a union environment.

Ryan, my two-tiered wage proposal would only affect those drivers who attain FT seniority status after the ratification of the contract. Our competition is killing us on labor costs and UPS needs to do something to remain competitive. The auto workers have gone to a two-tiered wage system without adverse effects. Yes, it would suck that a new FT seniority may be making substantially less than his more senior counterparts for the same job but $35/hr plus benefits for a job which only requires a HS diploma is simply unrealistic in today's economy.

 

[Bubblehead]

Could it be that the money goes in to infrastructure, technology or other improvements to ensure our continued profitability? Our contract has a COLA provision to deal with inflation. When is it enough? At what point would you consider yourself to be adequately compensated?

I would say "adequately compensated" is tied directly to profits.
The money you refer to that is used to improve infrastructure and technology, in most cases, is tied to the bottom line and written off against said profits.
In the face of record profits, we deserve and should demand our fair share.
You continually belittle the driver position as being one of an uneducated, unskilled profession not worthy of the compensation earned.
I see us more as craftsmen that served an apprenticeship to gain our status within the company.
The majority who start the journey never reach this plateau.
Most of us worked many years part time, then enduried a qualifying period followed by a lengthy pay progression.
Give yours back if you want, but I will take every penny without batting an eye.
I have earned it!

 

[CharleyHustle]

The wage differential does need to be addressed which is why I think you will see a two-tiered wage system introduced for discussion by the company for our next contract.

In the thread "Driver Buyouts" Its been stated that you will never see a buy out, without it I don't think a tier system will pass. Full timers would never vote to cut their own throat by giving the company incentive to rid themselves of higher priced workers without something to help break their fall.